# Sending the wrong message **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 22, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065 "2010-06-22T00:00:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/81 "2010-06-24T20:31:27Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > I assume you’re referring to Winchester as Frank Burns was NOT a great surgeon. Actually, I believe he’s referring to Hawkeye. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/82 "2010-06-24T20:39:57Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > Because…that’s exactly what happens. Mulan is injured in battle and kicked out of the army when her true sex is discovered. She does successfully kill Shan Yu using fireworks. She is then offered a high-ranking political office, which she refuses in order to go home and marry Li Shang, which has become more important to her than her country. The first time she is truly comfortable with her self-image is when she sees her reflection as a more confident but feminine, traditional woman upon returning home. Actually, she goes home alone to be with her family, and Li Shang follows her there. It is not stated they will get married, but it is strongly implied. As for “feminine, traditional woman,” well, having been caught at it once she can no longer pretend to be a man, and with the war over she has no reason to do so anyway; so **of course** she puts on women’s clothes again. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/83 "2010-06-24T20:41:16Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > Actually, I believe he’s referring to Hawkeye. Yes, Hawkeye was the person I was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/84 "2010-06-24T21:15:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, she goes home alone to be with her family, and Li Shang follows her there. It is not stated they will get married, but it is strongly implied. As for “feminine, traditional woman,” well, having been caught at it once she can no longer pretend to be a man, and with the war over she has no reason to do so anyway; so **of course** she puts on women’s clothes again. Her whole purpose in the first place was to save or protect her father, so she goes home to see him, and the rest of her family. Her father told her he was proud of her, and it was after that that Li Shang showed up. But she did get the appropriate recognition from the emperor. She just made her own choice to go home to the family she loved. Nobody told her she had to. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/85 "2010-06-24T21:29:34Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Yes, Hawkeye was the person I was referring to. Funny you should make that observation. I was watching the Office the other night and saw a direct correlation to M_A_S\*H as far as characterization goes. Henry Blake —\> Michael Scott (Both clueless leaders of their respective outfits) Frank Burns —\> Dwight Schrute (Both antagonistic to their co-workers, stuffed shirts, and slavish to company policy) “Hot Lips” Houlihan —\> Angela Martin (both cold, judgmental and uptight, they frown upon all frivolous activity in the company. Also both have (what they mistakenly believe) a hidden, steamy affair going on with the main antagonists) Benjamin “Hawkeye” Pierce —\> Jim Halpert (both have great talent, but can be as self-righteous, sanctimonious, mean and petty as they want to be.) ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/86 "2010-06-24T21:34:48Z")
**Lord of the Flies** : Almost all children are, at their core, hideous little shits. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/87 "2010-06-24T21:49:21Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > **Lord of the Flies** : Almost all children are, at their core, hideous little shits. That’s a wrong message? As a real-life Piggy I can assure you that adult civilization is the only reason why bottom of the totem pole losers in school aren’t hazed to death. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/88 "2010-06-24T21:57:49Z")
I’ll accept the correction on the fact that Mulan goes home to be with her family, not to be with Li Shang. > [@thirdwarning](#): > > Her whole purpose in the first place was to save or protect her father, so she goes home to see him, and the rest of her family. Her father told her he was proud of her, and it was after that that Li Shang showed up. But she did get the appropriate recognition from the emperor. She just made her own choice to go home to the family she loved. Nobody told her she had to. Yes, her purpose was to protect her father, but she also seemed to feel that in fighting in the army she could find a place that was right for her, when she never thought she could fit into a traditional role. In the end what she seems to learn is that in fact, the place that is right for her is a traditional role, even after she has proven herself extremely intelligent and capable of being not only successful but respected in a role that is prestigious and usually held by men in her society. So I felt that this was ‘sending the wrong message’ because while this movie shows Mulan as a strong and independent woman, its ultimate conclusion seems to be that once she has realized she is capable of being strong and independent, she should stick to the status quo because it’s too dangerous to do something like fighting in the army… ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/89 "2010-06-24T22:07:53Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > I’ll accept the correction on the fact that Mulan goes home to be with her family, not to be with Li Shang. > > Yes, her purpose was to protect her father, but she also seemed to feel that in fighting in the army she could find a place that was right for her, when she never thought she could fit into a traditional role. In the end what she seems to learn is that in fact, the place that is right for her is a traditional role, even after she has proven herself extremely intelligent and capable of being not only successful but respected in a role that is prestigious and usually held by men in her society. > > So I felt that this was ‘sending the wrong message’ because while this movie shows Mulan as a strong and independent woman, its ultimate conclusion seems to be that once she has realized she is capable of being strong and independent, she should stick to the status quo because it’s too dangerous to do something like fighting in the army… Okay, I got a different message. I got that she did not fit into traditional roles and was at a loss, because she felt her family would be shamed. When the recruiter came around, she sort of shrugged her shoulders and went to protect her father. After serving, upon returning home, she is contrite. She seems to think her family will be ashamed of her - instead her father embraces her and says he is proud to have her as a daughter, whether she is traditional or not. The prince is added on, he loves her as a non-traditional female, therefore more acceptance even in being different. I have seen this movie a lot, so my experience may be different. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/90 "2010-06-24T22:54:37Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > She seems to think her family will be ashamed of her - instead her father embraces her and says he is proud to have her as a daughter, whether she is traditional or not. The prince is added on, he loves her as a non-traditional female, therefore more acceptance even in being different. > > I have seen this movie a lot, so my experience may be different. In my opinion, what you mention here is absolutely the _intended_ message and I think it’s what most viewers got out of it. I just felt uncomfortable with the way it seems to suggest that once Mulan is accepted for herself as who she is, she’s ‘done’, she can give up all of her opportunities to choose a more traditional lifestyle. I also dislike how Troo Luv seems to be emphasized as a goal for female protagonists more than an active lifestyle with opportunities to use her intelligence and skills. (See also: _Pirates of the Caribbean 3_.) But we can agree to disagree, I don’t mind. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Woodhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Miss\_Woodhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Woodhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/91 "2010-06-24T23:13:13Z")
**Most Romantic Comedies** it’s ok to lie to the person you love because even though eventually your lover will find out and be mad, the great big god in the machine will rescue you and everything will be ok in the end with no consequences. Bonus points for movies where the lie includes acting completely different from one’s self and the romantic interest still manages to love the “real” person who was hiding under all the lies. ( **How to Lose a Guy** I’m looking at you!) ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/92 "2010-06-24T23:47:10Z")
> [@obfusciatrist](#): > > Forrest Gump: All that matters is athletic ability, anything above the shoulders is unnecessary and perhaps harmful. You guys totally missed the point of that movie. Seemed to me like the message was, “be a good person just for the sake of being a good person.” What’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/93 "2010-06-25T01:04:58Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > You guys totally missed the point of that movie. Seemed to me like the message was, “be a good person just for the sake of being a good person.” What’s wrong with that? I’m sort of in your camp. However, this thread is all in good fun. I always watched “Gump” as a movie with a satirical edge. Gump was just the main player to witness the events. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/94 "2010-06-25T02:07:16Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > You guys totally missed the point of that movie. Seemed to me like the message was, “be a good person just for the sake of being a good person.” What’s wrong with that? **Forrest Gump** is a modern retelling of an old folk tale trope, common to cultures around the world. That of the Wise Fool, whose guileless decency serves him better than his fellows’ cleverness. ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/95 "2010-06-25T02:41:36Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > Funny you should make that observation. I was watching the Office the other night and saw a direct correlation to M_A_S\*H as far as characterization goes. > > Henry Blake —\> Michael Scott (Both clueless leaders of their respective outfits) > > Frank Burns —\> Dwight Schrute (Both antagonistic to their co-workers, stuffed shirts, and slavish to company policy) > > “Hot Lips” Houlihan —\> Angela Martin (both cold, judgmental and uptight, they frown upon all frivolous activity in the company. Also both have (what they mistakenly believe) a hidden, steamy affair going on with the main antagonists) > > Benjamin “Hawkeye” Pierce —\> Jim Halpert (both have great talent, but can be as self-righteous, sanctimonious, mean and petty as they want to be.) Excellent observation, my friend. Had never noticed. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/96 "2010-06-25T03:51:33Z")
> [@Electric\_Warrior](#): > > In my opinion, what you mention here is absolutely the _intended_ message and I think it’s what most viewers got out of it. I just felt uncomfortable with the way it seems to suggest that once Mulan is accepted for herself as who she is, she’s ‘done’, she can give up all of her opportunities to choose a more traditional lifestyle. I also dislike how Troo Luv seems to be emphasized as a goal for female protagonists more than an active lifestyle with opportunities to use her intelligence and skills. (See also: _Pirates of the Caribbean 3_.) > > But we can agree to disagree, I don’t mind. 🙂 AFAIK the original folktale also ends with her visiting her family and marrying her co-soldier, though IIRC she spends _years_ away (as a soldier would do) and rises through the ranks. At least that’s how the Chinese/English storybook from the library goes. So it’s not like Disney changed the ending, like they did with _The Little Mermaid_. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/97 "2010-06-25T04:05:55Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > I’m sort of in your camp. However, this thread is all in good fun. > I always watched “Gump” as a movie with a satirical edge. Gump was just the main player to witness the events. I think the “stupidity will be rewarded” idea is only about half finished. Yes, he makes a fortune, but no, that’s not a reward because money doesn’t make him happy. I’ve always thought that movie was a tragedy. I mean, many of the things that happen to him would leave anyone else feeling thrilled, or devastated, or awestruck. I think it’s sad that so many extraordinary experiences would be wasted on someone who couldn’t appreciate them. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/98 "2010-06-25T04:18:31Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve always thought that movie was a tragedy. I mean, many of the things that happen to him would leave anyone else feeling thrilled, or devastated, or awestruck. **I think it’s sad that so many extraordinary experiences would be wasted on someone who couldn’t appreciate them**. Sheesh, what a condescending way to look at it. ---
**Author:** ![a35362](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@a35362](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a35362)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/99 "2010-06-28T21:46:00Z")
Doesn’t Sandy sing a song right before her makeover about how she has to be brave and grow up, or something? So she has to lose the “good girl” persona and fit in with her peers which, at this school, means being a slut. But not just any slut – she has to be the queen of the sluts! The Stockard Channing character is only a tough chick by comparison. Mulan still can’t cook or do other girly things, though! How does she make a life with Shang? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065/100 "2010-06-28T23:14:27Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > M_A_S\*H (TV series) - If you’ve got great talent, you can be as self-righteous, sanctimonious, mean and petty as you want to be. I haven’t seen every episode, so can’t give a fully informed opinion. (That finale, however, totally undermined what I saw as the fundamental overriding characteristic of Dr. Pierce: To survive the insanity of war, you have to be even more insane–albeit in a positive way. By the end of the series, Hawkeye was playing Alan Alda, and not the other way around.) I got something similar from _A Clockwork Orange_: that if you can merely _appreciate_ great art, you should be able to do whatever you like, up to and including murder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sending-the-wrong-message/544065.md?page=6)