# SenorBeef: "hey, dead kids. Everyone wins!" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417 "2013-03-20T02:34:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/41 "2013-03-20T17:18:46Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Yeah, I can understand. The proposed laws aren’t to your liking because they are unfair or insensible. Do you expect them to just whip up legislation that’s going to be 100% accurate and pleasing to everyone? No, it’s going to take steps before we get anywhere reasonable. This actually strikes me as a bizarre variant of the slippery slope argument. Whereas the slippery slope fallacy opposes reasonable measures because unreasonable measures require those reasonable measures as a precursor, you are doing the exact opposite: you’re advocating unreasonable measures\* because reasonable measures require those unreasonable measures as a precursor. That seems equally silly to me. If we need some sort of gun control, then we need it, but we don’t need stupid gun control measures. I could propose right now that all guns be equipped with a loudspeaker that shouts, “HELP, HELP, I’M BEING OPPRESSED!” and waits 10 seconds before the safety is disengaged. That’s gun control, but it’s stupid. Saying that we need to do dumb stuff before we get anywhere reasonable is not true. Let’s **start** with the reasonable measures. - or at least suggesting others should be okay with advocating unreasonable measures ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/42 "2013-03-20T17:23:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I could propose right now that all guns be equipped with a loudspeaker that shouts, “HELP, HELP, I’M BEING OPPRESSED!” and waits 10 seconds before the safety is disengaged. That’s gun control, but it’s stupid. It sure is - the actual MP&HG quote is “Help, help, I’m being **re** pressed!” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/43 "2013-03-20T17:25:45Z")
True, but the maximum concealed carry capacity of a European Sparrow is a single shot .22 derringer. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/44 "2013-03-20T17:27:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Saying that we need to do dumb stuff before we get anywhere reasonable is not true. Let’s **start** with the reasonable measures. I agree. All I’m saying is steps need to be taken in favor of gun control. Leaving things the way they are is one of the stupidest things we could do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/45 "2013-03-20T17:32:00Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I agree. All I’m saying is steps need to be taken in favor of gun control. Leaving things the way they are is one of the stupidest things we could do. I agree that measures need to be taken. I don’t agree that ill-conceived measures should be taken. Rather, we should ask, “Would society be a net better place if we take this measure?” Some measures I’m pretty sure would make our world better: universal background checks, for example, would probably keep a few guns out of the hands of criminals, and banning assault weapons would probably prevent a massacre or two (because even though non-automatics can be turned into automatics, every barrier you add to that process has the chance of being the specific barrier that stops someone). Some measures would probably make our world worse: confiscating guns would lead to a civil war. We need to evaluate each measure independently to figure out what its effects would probably be, not just assume a priori that every gun control measure is good, or that every gun control measure is bad. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/46 "2013-03-20T18:02:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It involves ball bearings and penises, I think you can guess. Aw, c’mon guys, its so simple! Maybe you need a refresher course. It’s all ball bearings these days. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/47 "2013-03-20T18:09:41Z")
No! No, I don’t! I don’t need to know a goddam thing except whatever the hell “dick rot” is and how to avoid it! All the rest of it I don’t know, don’t fucking need to know, and damn sure won’t know! (Punch line from old, old joke: “That’s silly, surgery isn’t necessary, in a week at most, it will fall off all by itself!”) ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/48 "2013-03-20T18:14:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, but why do you think they have that agenda? You’ve suggested that Dianne Feinstein is thrilled to hear of a new school shooting, because it lets her put her anti-gun agenda back into play. But why is she anti-gun, other than a concern that lax gun laws lead to things like school shootings? And if there is no other reason than that, why do you think she’s so excited to hear about another school shooting, when her opposition to guns is based on wanting to prevent exactly that sort of thing? What the hell do you mean “why is Feinstein anti-gun”? You _really_ do not know what her motivation is? Bolding below is mine. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > On November 27, 1978, San Francisco mayor George Moscone and supervisor Harvey Milk were assassinated by a rival politician, Dan White, who had resigned from the Board of Supervisors only two weeks prior. **Feinstein was close by in City Hall at the time of the shootings, and discovered Milk’s body after hearing the gunshots and going to investigate.** Later that day at a press conference originally organized by Moscone to announce White’s successor, Feinstein announced the assassinations to the stunned public, stating: “As president of the board of supervisors, it’s my duty to make this announcement. Both Mayor Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk have been shot and killed.”[18] > > Feinstein appears in archival footage and is credited in the Academy Award-winning documentary film The Times of Harvey Milk (1984). She appears again briefly in archival footage, announcing the death of Moscone and Milk in the 2008 film Milk. Feinstein and her position as President of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors are also alluded to several times in the movie, and a portrayal of her character has a few off-screen lines. > > As president of the Board of Supervisors upon the death of Mayor Moscone, Feinstein succeeded to the mayoralty on December 4, 1978. I’m sorry, but if I just mopped up the brains and blood of two trusted coworkers, whose death resulted in _me_ getting a promotion… I’d still be working on gun control 30 years later, too. She’s almost the Gabbie Giffords of the late 1970s (only she didn’t actually get shot in the head, but it just as well _could_ have been her). Perhaps her real motivation is that she does not want to find any more dead co-workers bleeding on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/49 "2013-03-20T18:32:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s taken months before I could finally think of Newtown without tearing up at the thought that that could just as easily have been a classroom with my kid in it I don’t believe you. Unless you physically knew a person who died at Newtown, this is a ridiculous overreaction and/or exaggeration. This isn’t the sadness Olympics, people. You don’t get a medal for crying first, last, and loudest. I won’t be back to the thread because this fucking debate has been done to death. Go find a dog or beer and hug or drink it, for christ’s sake. Worrying about political processes that you can’t influence is sooo 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/50 "2013-03-20T18:44:15Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I don’t believe you. Unless you physically knew a person who died at Newtown, this is a ridiculous overreaction and/or exaggeration. This isn’t the sadness Olympics, people. You don’t get a medal for crying first, last, and loudest. Meh. I believe him. Being a parent often causes people to react irrationally to news of children getting hurt, and I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/51 "2013-03-20T19:10:05Z")
“Great Dead Kids!” Is not what went though my mind. “ENOUGH IS A-FUCKING-NOUGH!” is what went through my mind. But apparently it isn’t as the assault weapons ban is not going to pass. Even with a bunch of dead kids. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/52 "2013-03-20T19:17:52Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > And **Absolute** , just for reference, **Der Tris** isn’t a good cite. It’s like one of our more liberal posters quoting **Curlcoat** as a standard Republican viewpoint. Everyone realizes they’re crazy. We like to keep them around to makes things interesting. Bullshit. I said there were rabid, frothing anti-gun nutjobs posting outrageous bullshit about gun owners on this board. I was asked to provide a cite, and I did. You cannot reject my cite because the guy I cited is _too much_ of a rabid, frothing anti-gun nutjob. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/53 "2013-03-20T19:22:19Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Bullshit. I said there were rabid, frothing anti-gun nutjobs posting outrageous bullshit about gun owners on this board. I was asked to provide a cite, and I did. You cannot reject my cite because the guy I cited is _too much_ of a rabid, frothing anti-gun nutjob. You can’t say education is failing then point at the mentally handicapped kid as proof. No offense **Der Tris**. 😉 When they were asking for a person who said that, they meant someone at least slightly reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/54 "2013-03-20T19:42:08Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Take universal background checks, for instance. Supported by 91% of the public. Supported by a majority of gun owners. However, it’s the devil because, you know, confiscation or some such nonsense. **Nobody** wants to take your guns unless you are a menace or potentially unbalanced. Even if people did want to take all the guns, how possible do you think that’d be when we can’t even get universal background checks passed when it has 91% public support? It’s ridiculous. This is also bullshit. Numerous states have introduced legislation that proposes to ban private ownership of assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, semi-automatic weapons, etc., _without_ grandfathering existing weapons. Just, they’re now illegal, turn them in by a certain date or you go to jail. The editorial page of the Hartford Courant, in my home state of Connecticut, argues that such a grandfathering clause is undesirable because it would reduce the effectiveness of a ban. Regardless of whether these laws _will pass today_ or not, it is simply false to claim that “ **nobody** wants to take your guns unless you are a menace or potentially unbalanced.” These laws would take guns away from _everybody_\*, and they’ve been put forward by elected legislators, not internet crackpots. > [@](#): > > Instead of screaming, “SECOND AMENDMENT!!11!eleventy” at the top of your lungs, how about you suggest something that would meaningfully curb gun violence and save innocent lives, because that’s all we’re trying to do. Fuck off. I have proposed several reasonable schemes in many threads on this board which would preserve gun owner’s rights while reducing violence. For instance, liability insurance for gun owners, and licensing requirements for gun owners. You and your crowd are the ones who ignore these proposals. Why? I suggest, because you don’t actually give a shit about preserving gun owner’s rights, you just think guns are bad and anything that limits gun rights in some way must be good. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/55 "2013-03-20T19:51:51Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > You can’t say education is failing then point at the mentally handicapped kid as proof. No offense **Der Tris**. 😉 > > When they were asking for a person who said that, they meant someone at least slightly reasonable. In the link I posted, a moderator on this board posted the following: > [@](#): > > You have to admit it’s curious that a proposed general ban on many weapons results, specifically, in a huge rush on the AR-15 Gradeschooler. Are you also going to dismiss this because RickJay is a nutjob? I am not going to dig through the 500 pages of gun threads on this board to find more evidence. The point is, many reasonable people on this board who I otherwise admire, like and respect have made postings that imply gun owners, as a group, are murderous psychopaths who enjoy guns because of their capability for mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/56 "2013-03-20T20:00:34Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > This is also bullshit. Numerous states have introduced legislation that proposes to ban private ownership of assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, semi-automatic weapons, etc., _without_ grandfathering existing weapons. Just, they’re now illegal, turn them in by a certain date or you go to jail. The editorial page of the Hartford Courant, in my home state of Connecticut, argues that such a grandfathering clause is undesirable because it would reduce the effectiveness of a ban. Well, I can see a ban on high capacity magazines. I can’t think of a realistic scenario where one might need a high capacity magazine. I wasn’t aware of any attempt to not grandfather in “assault rifles.” Registration of them, I can see, outright banning? That, I don’t support. > [@](#): > > Fuck off. I have proposed several reasonable schemes in many threads on this board which would preserve gun owner’s rights while reducing violence. For instance, liability insurance for gun owners, and licensing requirements for gun owners. That was actually directed at **Debaser** , and not yourself. I support all the things you mentioned and welcome the ideas. I have a few of my own, such as mandatory in-person training for anyone who wants to possess a firearm. > [@](#): > > You and your crowd are the ones who ignore these proposals. Why? I suggest, because you don’t actually give a shit about preserving gun owner’s rights, you just think guns are bad and anything that limits gun rights in some way must be good. And we’re back to arguing with an empty chair. I’ve flatly stated that the general intention is to regulate in a way that reduces gun violence in common sense ways. Of course, you jumped right to “You want to take away my rights!!!11!” ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/57 "2013-03-20T20:01:19Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Fuck off. Sorry, this topic always gets me really riled up, because I tend to take statements directed at “gun owners” personally. You were being (relatively) civil to me and this was unjustified; please accept my apology. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/58 "2013-03-20T20:06:37Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > I’m sorry, but if I just mopped up the brains and blood of two trusted coworkers, whose death resulted in _me_ getting a promotion… I’d still be working on gun control 30 years later, too. She’s almost the Gabbie Giffords of the late 1970s (only she didn’t actually get shot in the head, but it just as well _could_ have been her). Perhaps her real motivation is that she does not want to find any more dead co-workers bleeding on the floor. The guy who committed those murders was a police officer, and he used a revolver! How this is a valid justification for trying to ban certain types of rifle and high-capacity magazines is beyond me. Or are you suggesting that her ultimate goal is in fact to ban all types of private gun ownership, and that her proposed assault weapons ban is just the first step? Hmm, where have I heard that before? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/59 "2013-03-20T20:12:37Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > “Great Dead Kids!” > > Is not what went though my mind. > > “ENOUGH IS A-FUCKING-NOUGH!” is what went through my mind. > But apparently it isn’t as the assault weapons ban is not going to pass. Even with a bunch of dead kids. How many deaths at the hands of drunk drivers will it take to ban alcohol? Why do you not think “ENOUGH IS A-FUCKING-NOUGH!” whenever you hear of a child being killed by a drunk driver? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417/60 "2013-03-20T20:17:48Z")
At this point I’m _almost_ willing to agree to a full ban on alcohol, swimming pools and claw hammers if that’s what it takes for gun boosters to let that lame fucking argument die. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/senorbeef-hey-dead-kids-everyone-wins/653417.md?page=4)