# SentientMeat begs America: Fuck Neoconservatism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 1, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304 "2004-11-01T12:29:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/21 "2004-11-01T15:41:35Z")
You might want to take a look at Tod Lindberg’s article in the Weekly Standard (which is probably the most prominent neoconservative magazine), saying that, in his opinion, whether Bush or Kerry wins the election, neoconservativism will have won. [http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/825cpvzf.asp](http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/825cpvzf.asp) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/22 "2004-11-01T15:50:02Z")
Interesting article, **Captain** , but painting those in the Democratic Party who advocate **co-operative** intervention from a **humanitarian** perspective as “neoconservatives” is simple rhetorical legerdemain. If there really is so little difference, I take it that just as many neoconservatives advocate a Kerry victory as a Bush one? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/23 "2004-11-01T16:00:08Z")
No, most neoconservatives support Bush…you and I both know that, for one of the reasons you suggested…that they’re afraid Kerry will be too multilateralist. As for “humanitarian” interventions, both neoconservatives and neoliberals support humanitarian interventions. Don’t confuse neoconservatives with realists. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/24 "2004-11-01T16:15:12Z")
Interesting that the author claims: > [@](#): > > The second turn came after 9/11. Culminating in the promulgation of the 2002 National Security Strategy of the United States, it built on previous insights–many, as noted, from neoconservatives–into the scale of U.S. power and responsibility and outlined measures the United States would take to preserve its position and counter threats of the sort suggested by the 9/11 attack. Once again, neoconservatives were at the forefront of the new thinking. Yet the fundamental neocon foreign policy document, [Rebulding America’s Defenses](http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf), mentions terrorism just twice - once in the context of Clinton’s rocket attack against Bin Laden, and once incidentally: > [@](#): > > America’s global leadership, and its role as the guarantor of the current great-power peace, relies upon the safety of the American homeland; the preservation of a favorable balance of power in Europe, the Middle East and surrounding energy producing region, and East Asia; and the general stability of the international system of nation-states relative to terrorists, > organized crime, and other “non-state actors.” The “insights” to which he refers did not include defense against terror. They were more concerned with counter-ICBM weapons systems and massively increasing military funding, none of which offer much protection from the tactics of fanatical terrorists using domestic “weapons”. This leads one to speculate that a non-neocon government might have adopted a similar post-9/11 strategy towards Al Qaeda and the Taliban - one that the author merely claims _ex post facto_ is neoconservative. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/25 "2004-11-01T16:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t confuse neoconservatives with realists. No fear. I will also strive to avoid confusing my mentally ill friend Phil with Napoleon Bonaparte. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/26 "2004-11-01T16:23:53Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I apologise for exaggerating. Not the entire cabinet. Yup, _one_ member of the cabinet. No exaggeration there. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And of course, Jeb. You may not be aware of this, but Jeb Bush is not a member of the Administration. He’s, um, Governor of Florida. Last time I checked, Florida (Evil Empire though it be) is not involved in running foreign policy. It’s like, a state, you know. While I agree with the OP about turning the Bush Administration out of office, it is a lamentably cartoonish view to cast the election as the Struggle Against the Neo-Cons. As we Kerry supporters might say, it is a viewpoint lacking in nuance. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/27 "2004-11-01T16:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > As we Kerry supporters might say, it is a viewpoint lacking in nuance. Any more “nuance” and you won’t get enough frigging _votes_. Your call. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/28 "2004-11-01T16:44:43Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Yup, _one_ member of the cabinet. No exaggeration there. :rolleyes: I withdraw my comment. I should have said “administration”. > [@](#): > > You may not be aware of this, but Jeb Bush is not a member of the Administration. Mentioned merely in passing as a connection, without meaning to imply he was in government. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/29 "2004-11-01T16:45:54Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > This leads one to speculate that a non-neocon government might have adopted a similar post-9/11 strategy towards Al Qaeda and the Taliban - one that the author merely claims _ex post facto_ is neoconservative. Except the author doesn’t say that the post-9/11 strategy against Al Qaeda and the Taliban was neoconservative. He says that the 2002 National Security Strategy (which can be found here:) [http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html](http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html) was influenced by neoconservative thought. And it was, especially the emphasis on using foreign aid to champion democracy and human rights, and encouraging free trade. And I have no idea what **Sentient Meat’s** friend Phil and Napoleon Bonaparte have to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/30 "2004-11-01T16:54:54Z")
Fuck both sides. [Here’s](http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2463) who to vote for. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/31 "2004-11-01T17:22:12Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Any more “nuance” and you won’t get enough frigging _votes_. Your call. You obviously haven’t been paying attention to the most important election prognostic indicator. In the last 17 presidential elections dating back to 1933, the result has followed the outcome of the last Washington Redskins home game before the election. When the home team wins, the incumbent party wins. When the 'Skins lose, the other party triumphs. The Redskins were defeated Sunday. Ya gotta believe. ---
**Author:** ![Roseworm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Roseworm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roseworm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/32 "2004-11-01T17:32:12Z")
What is so \*bad \* about promoting freedom and democracy around the world? I am amazed by the number of self-styled liberal Dopers who seem content to let millions of people around the world live in misery and poverty, crushed under brutal repression. From the standpoint of classic liberalism, this does not seem to be very humanitarian. Besides, for the last 40 years the US government (Democrat and Republican administrations alike) took the attitude: “Well, General So-and-so is a bloody, iron-fisted tyrant, but at least he is _our_ bloody, iron-fisted tyrant.” This was a very cynical approach to foreign policy and, in many ways, it has brought our country to its current predicament. I see little to be lost by taking a different approach - even a radically different approach. It is indisputable that support for Israel is a major linchpin of Neocon foreign policy. Those who oppose Neoconservatism may not be anti-Semitic, but they are _definitely_ anti-Israel. They subscribe to the notion (very prevalent in Europe) that, if only pesky little Israel would go away, the Islamic world would simmer down. This is a very beguiling idea, but it is a delusion. The Palestinians have a little saying which does not get a lot of play in the press: “Today is Saturday; tomorrow is Sunday.” Translation: “First we kill all the Jews, then we kill all the Christians.” The fact is, we _must_ support Israel because it is a major redoubt against the Islamofascist assault on \*all \* of Western Civilization. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/33 "2004-11-01T17:42:51Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > What is so \*bad \* about promoting freedom and democracy around the world? Nothing at all. Let me know when George W. Bush starts to do this. Before you bring up Iraq, I do not consider installing a foreign military dictatorship fronted by a puppet to be “freedom and democracy.” > [@](#): > > Besides, for the last 40 years the US government (Democrat and Republican administrations alike) took the attitude: “Well, General So-and-so is a bloody, iron-fisted tyrant, but at least he is _our_ bloody, iron-fisted tyrant.” Umm… how has that changed? I mean, when was the last election in Saudi Arabia? Why so chummy with China? > [@](#): > > It is indisputable that support for Israel is a major linchpin of Neocon foreign policy. Those who oppose Neoconservatism may not be anti-Semitic, but they are _definitely_ anti-Israel. Complete bullshit. I’m virulently anti-Bush, but equally pro-Israel. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/34 "2004-11-01T18:09:35Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > It is indisputable that support for Israel is a major linchpin of Neocon foreign policy. Those who oppose Neoconservatism may not be anti-Semitic, but they are _definitely_ anti-Israel. Not even that. Let’s assume I run on the following platform : -Free heroin will be distributed in kindergartens -Papers will be forbidden to ran articles criticizing my admnistration -Zoroastrism will be made the official and mandatory religion -Israel will get more aid Does the fact that one of the main points of my platform is support to Israel make all my opponents anti-Israel? > [@](#): > > They subscribe to the notion (very prevalent in Europe) that, if only pesky little Israel would go away, the Islamic world would simmer down. I’m unaware of this supposedly prevalent notion. The notions that Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, acting in bad faith, etc…are commonly held, but it’s not the same at all as assuming that a policy change in Israel will miraculously solve all the problems in the middle east. Also, you seem to imply that the notion that is prevalent is that Israel should dissapear, not that Israel policies are unnaceptable. It’s as true as stating that anybody opposing Bush wants the USA to go away. > [@](#): > > The fact is, we _must_ support Israel because it is a major redoubt against the Islamofascist assault on \*all \* of Western Civilization. I like so much elaborate, in depth and well thought geopolitical analysis. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/35 "2004-11-01T18:14:11Z")
Just noticed that you’re also the poster advocating the use of legally mandated torture. I guess that indeed you’re in a position to lecture us about promoting freedom and democracy… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/36 "2004-11-01T18:27:31Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > What is so \*bad \* about promoting freedom and democracy around the world? I am amazed by the number of self-styled liberal Dopers who seem content to let millions of people around the world live in misery and poverty, crushed under brutal repression. From the standpoint of classic liberalism, this does not seem to be very humanitarian. THat’s right, because being a person who doesn’t support unfounded wars, doesn’t support the bastardization of the constitution for religio-pandering purposes based on hate and division, doesn’t support religion-based opinions on science and abortion, doesn’t support prejudice and bigotry and cronyism in the highest ranks of our government, I’m naturally what you and other talking heads call a “classic” liberal, right? I conform to every aspect of what a “classic” liberal is just because I disagree with our current administration and wish a change of government. Right? Wrong. You fucking simpleton. This has nothing to do with bringing goodwill, peace, and deomcracy to other nations. Have you paid attention at all? I know you’re new here, but do you see what other Demos/Kerry supporters/Anti-Bushies are saying? If you’ve seen it, is there some reason it hasn’t penetrated your thick-ass skull? I know you’re being obtuse on purpose, and I know that the feelings expressed in your post are nothing but condescending bullshit fed to you by the media and other far-right talking heads and pundits. If you really do feel this way, please remove yourself from the gene pool. Now. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Roseworm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Roseworm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roseworm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/37 "2004-11-01T19:07:45Z")
“…please remove yourself from the gene pool. Now.” To **GaWd** : Inviting me to commit suicide is not going to improve my opinion of you or your arguments. I know that liberals like to think of themselves as altruistic, compassionate touchy-feely types, but, to date, I have seen no evidence for that preening notion on _this_ message board. I will say, though, that you, GaWd, seem _much_ too eager to “feel my pain.” To **clairobscur** : Yes, I am the much-beloved “Torture Queen” of the SDMB. But I was merely playing around with the “Ticking Bomb Scenario.” I have never actually advocated the use of legally mandated torture. Not _yet_, anyway. Check back with me after a few more months in the BBQ Pit. To the BBQ Pit at large: I am now a Charter Member. This is the first board of any kind I have joined on the Web. It would have been easy to find a right-wing board, but what is the point of preaching to the choir? And besides, I will frankly and candidly admit that it is a lot of fun maintaining a cool head in the Pit while almost everyone else is behaving like a rabid hyena on angel dust. Trying to win an argument by getting right in your opponent’s face and spewing bile and venom is a little crude, folks. You can do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/38 "2004-11-01T19:17:17Z")
Like, um, building strawmen to beat up on? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/39 "2004-11-01T19:27:30Z")
> [@Roseworm](#): > > “…please remove yourself from the gene pool. Now.” > > To **GaWd** : > > Inviting me to commit suicide is not going to improve my opinion of you or your arguments. I know that liberals like to think of themselves as altruistic, compassionate touchy-feely types, but, to date, I have seen no evidence for that preening notion on _this_ message board. I will say, though, that you, GaWd, seem _much_ too eager to “feel my pain.” Pardon me. Did I once mention you should _kill_ yourself? Give me a break. I didn’t infer, omply, nor impress upon you my opinion that you should do yourself bodily harm. As for my altruism, the last 6 months of bullshit from the right put together in sound bites, condescension, high-horse riding, holier-than-thou preaching, religion spewing, under-the-covers right violating crap I’ve had to put up with both here and in my real life are enough to drive me up the wall. You are proving yourself to be a simple person with simple answers simply parroted by other pundits and fox-like news outlets. You’re just about the least intellectually inclined new member I’ve seen in a while. The fact that you invite attacks like this are mind-boggling. Open your eyes, look around. You’re trying to put everyon agains Bush or pro-Kerry into a box, and we don’t all fit that box. You make it sound so simple, while being so condescending at the same time. > [@](#): > > To the BBQ Pit at large: > > I am now a Charter Member. This is the first board of any kind I have joined on the Web. It would have been easy to find a right-wing board, but what is the point of preaching to the choir? And besides, I will frankly and candidly admit that it is a lot of fun maintaining a cool head in the Pit while almost everyone else is behaving like a rabid hyena on angel dust. Hold on, you paid up so you could “preach” to us the wisdom of the right? holy shit. > [@](#): > > Trying to win an argument by getting right in your opponent’s face and spewing bile and venom is a little crude, folks. > > You can do better than that. That’s the pit Honey, don’t like it? stick to MPSIMS where all are friendly. Sam ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304/40 "2004-11-01T19:29:51Z")
The BBQ Pit is the _place_ for bile and venom, **Ringworm**. If you seek informed argument and reasoned debate, I would enjoin you to contribute to teh Great Debates thread in my OP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sentientmeat-begs-america-fuck-neoconservatism/272304.md?page=3)