# Separate billiard competitions for men and women **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655 "2013-02-18T01:58:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/1 "2013-02-18T01:58:24Z")
I saw than Danica Patrick won the pole position for the Daytona 500. I think that’s great and my post isn’t really about her directly. It seems that there are some activities where it makes sense to have separate competitions for men and women, particularly those where physical size and strength are major factors (football, boxing, etc). But I could never understand why there are separate billiard competitions for men and women. I’m sure there are other competitions that can be called into question on this point, but this particular one has always puzzled me. What is the basis for this continued separation by sex? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/2 "2013-02-18T02:45:43Z")
> [@dataguy](#): > > But I could never understand why there are separate billiard competitions for men and women. I’m sure there are other competitions that can be called into question on this point, but this particular one has always puzzled me. What is the basis for this continued separation by sex? There was a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=36286) on this here a while back. the consensus seemed to be: 1. More men play pool, so even if there were really capable women, they are less inclined to compete professionally. 2. Women are not as good as men for a variety of reasons. 3. Historical accident that has continued via inertia. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/3 "2013-02-18T03:07:26Z")
Doesn’t muscle mass matter pretty seriously on the break? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/4 "2013-02-18T03:25:06Z")
No, the mass of the cue and velocity of the stroke do, and cues aren’t that heavy. ETA: I mean, I think that’s true, but I didn’t pay any more attention in Physics than I did in Algebra. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/5 "2013-02-18T03:37:18Z")
Reach would be a relevant factor - that is, having a longer reach would tend to be advantageous. And of course men, on average, have longer reaches than women. But that consideration would support classifying players directly by height or arm length, not indirectly by sex. I suspect the truth is that billiards was historically played in bars, where no (respectable) woman would go, so they played separately - and they still do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/6 "2013-02-18T04:12:32Z")
Another factor is that men are more variable than women; there tend to be more men at the extremes of most everything. This makes a big difference in competitive sports, which _by design_ select out the best performers from the average. Even if women are as good or a bit better than men on average, the very best top few percent of players will likely be male. So will the _worst_, but no one will notice or care about that. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/7 "2013-02-18T05:21:03Z")
Sheesh, didn’t anybody see _Cinderella Liberty_? Co-ed billiard matches just have too much potential to end in the kind of shenanigans that put James Caan into bed with Marcia Mason. Spoilered for people who _didn’t_ see _Cinderella Liberty_. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/8 "2013-02-18T15:34:32Z")
Pretty much _all_ sports or competitions of any kind segregated men and women decades ago, regardless of any actual competitive sex differences. Social inertia alone will maintain the segregation longer than a realization that there are no relevant differences in a particular competition would suggest desegregation would work. As the OP pointed out, auto racing has no relevant differences, but how long did it take for women to be allowed (either officially, or by social convention) to compete directly with men? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/9 "2013-02-18T19:58:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Spoilered for people who _didn’t_ see _Cinderella Liberty_. So… everybody but you, then? ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/10 "2013-02-18T20:08:20Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > As the OP pointed out, auto racing has no relevant differences, but how long did it take for women to be allowed (either officially, or by social convention) to compete directly with men? In NASCAR, since 1949, which is basically since the beginning of the sport. List of [female NASCAR drivers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_NASCAR_drivers). ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/11 "2013-02-18T21:42:09Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Pretty much _all_ sports or competitions of any kind segregated men and women decades ago, regardless of any actual competitive sex differences. Not quite all, though, See dressage. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/12 "2013-02-18T21:58:50Z")
> [@TATG](#): > > In NASCAR… > [@blindboyard](#): > > Not quite all… I’m not a sports fan. I was generalizing. Sue me. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/13 "2013-02-18T22:31:34Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Pretty much _all_ sports or competitions of any kind segregated men and women decades ago… This seems misleading: At the top level of the vast majority of sports, women are allowed to compete equally with men. It’s because they are rarely able to do so that a segregated division excluding men exists. (Indeed, I can’t offhand think of a sport that has an elite men’s division from which women are explicitly excluded. Any candidates?) ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/14 "2013-02-18T23:45:01Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > 1. Women are not as good as men for a variety of reasons. I could believe women on average were not as good as men but I would be amazed if there is any particular reason the best billiards player in the world couldn’t be a woman… Which brings me onto another point: billiards as I understand it is basically “solved” and any decent player can get a gazillion points (not sure if points is right term as I have no idea how to pay bollards, having been assured by snooker players what I assert he is the case) so why couldn’t a woman learn how to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/15 "2013-02-18T23:46:55Z")
Hmm on googling it seems billiards may be a more general term in the US than it is here, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/16 "2013-02-19T14:35:49Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > This seems misleading: At the top level of the vast majority of sports, women are allowed to compete equally with men. It’s because they are rarely able to do so that a segregated division excluding men exists. I wasn’t talking about ‘rules’ that specifically exclude them from competing with men. I was talking about ‘social conventions’ where it’s just expected that they won’t even _try_ to ‘join the men’s team’ or whatever. Decades ago, that was the social norm. Although that’s been changing over the last several decades, inertia alone is enough to maintain the old convention, within a given sport, longer than the society at large has the convention. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/17 "2013-02-19T15:04:59Z")
What’s that now? They would allow every maid and scrubber to join us in the billiards room? Nonsense! Absurd! They should be playing draughts and bridge in the parlor, with the other old hens! If women were allowed to play at sport, who should make my dinner? \ ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/18 "2013-02-19T15:10:30Z")
I have a interest in Billiards. One of the interesting things is that it always seems like the women’s competitions are the ones that are televised and the men’s rarely are. However, I think that’s just because the women’s competitions tend to be more competitive. Anyway, there are some amazingly talented women playing billiards right now, and I imagine a few of them at their peeks, could be competitive in a lot of the men’s tournaments, but ultimately the best men are just better and I doubt any of the women would have much of a chance. Yes, I would agree that men don’t have much of an advantage in billiards, at least not to the same degree as in football, basketball, or tennis, but men still have some definite advantages. Height and reach are probably one of the biggest advantages. Strength is also an advantage, though I think that comes up a lot less often. Also, in general, men have better spatial awareness, though, again, I think anyone playing at a professional level will have sufficient understanding of all of that. Ultimately, though, I think the higher variability in men ends up being the difference maker as it is with any sort of competition where the physical advantages of men are less obvious and that it’s just traditionally more of a mens game so there’s social barriers to women being competitive. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/19 "2013-02-19T15:18:14Z")
Women do compete against men in billiards. [Jasmin Ouschan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmin_Ouschan) is one example, she’s been competing in men’s tournaments for quite a while. She’s been the #1 woman player before, but looks like 3rd is her best finish in a men’s tournament. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655/20 "2013-02-19T19:14:18Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > I was talking about ‘social conventions’ where it’s just expected that they won’t even _try_ to ‘join the men’s team’ or whatever. So you believe there were women who could have successfully competed with men, but were held back by social convention? Any examples? > [@](#): > > Decades ago, that was the social norm. 1938 ought to qualify as decades ago - that was when Babe Didrikson first qualified for and played in a PGA golf tournament. We have above been given the example of a female NASCAR driver (Louise Smith) in 1949. > [@](#): > > inertia alone is enough to maintain the old convention, within a given sport, longer than the society at large has the convention. This is implausible. Elite athletes - such as Babe Didrikson - are less likely than the average person to be bound by societal norms. Jackie Robinson’s talents got him onto a major league baseball team well before this was conventional in society at large. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separate-billiard-competitions-for-men-and-women/650655.md?page=2)