# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/181 "2018-06-18T03:05:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The chaotic situation produces some results that can fairly be characterized as humane, then? > > Do you see any daylight between that claim and the claim that the policies are inhumane? > > In [Kentucky, in 2017,](https://nypost.com/2018/05/10/detective-offered-to-drive-rape-victim-home-but-demanded-sex-instead-cops/) a police detective is accused of turning his offer to drive a sexual assault victim home into a trip to a motel, where he raped her again, at least according to the indictment. …Bricker: when you are ready and willing to address either the subject of this thread or even the substance of my post then let me know. I honestly don’t have a fucking clue what you are going on about now, but I’m sure it all makes sense in your head. > [@](#): > > That was inhumane treatment. But it was not (I hope you agree) the policy of the Hillview Police Department to rape sexual assault victims on the way home. I’m entirely confident that what is happening now at the borders is a direct result of directives that have come from the Trump administration. I’ve just finished explaining to you exactly why the use of the word “policy” is problematic here. You’ve can’t just snip that from your quote and pretend I didn’t say it. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/182 "2018-06-18T03:12:41Z")
He’s arguing in support of the placement of children into tent cities. In the middle of Texas. In June. AND attempting to argue it’s not inhumane, though he believes it to be the textbook definition of the word. And asking that liberal Dopers fix it, while Republicans in Washington sit on their asses. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/183 "2018-06-18T03:19:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Here is a report about immigrant children released to human traffickers.](https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Majority%20&%20Minority%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Protecting%20Unaccompanied%20Alien%20Children%20from%20Trafficking%20and%20Other%20Abuses%202016-01-282.pdf) > > Was that also “directly attributable” to chaos and the President’s fault? …of course its attributable to “chaos”. The bigger and more complex the system, the more likely things will go wrong, and the more controls are needed to stop things going wrong the next time. The entire purpose of the report you cited was to " launch an investigation of HHS’s process for screening potential UAC sponsors and other measures to protect UACs from trafficking." Its how you keep chaos under control. You look for problems in the system, you investigate the problem, you put new controls in place to fix the problem. This particular instability in the system cannot be directly attributable to the President, because the President is not the person who created the instability. That isn’t the case here. The instability in the system is directly attributable to the Trump Administration because they issued the directives that have resulted in the people at the borders having to make procedures up on the fly. > [@](#): > > Inasmuch as it happened during the Obama administration, I suspect not. You suspect wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/184 "2018-06-18T03:24:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m entirely confident that what is happening now at the borders is a direct result of directives that have come from the Trump administration. I’ve just finished explaining to you exactly why the use of the word “policy” is problematic here. You’ve can’t just snip that from your quote and pretend I didn’t say it. Here’s what you said: > [@](#): > > You are asking me to cite a policy when it should be crystal fucking clear that this administration can’t even get their story straight on whether or not there is a policy. So now we’re talking about directives. OK. My position is: the directives apparently in play here are cruel and lack compassion, but I don’t agree they are “inhumane.” You apparently do believe those directives to be inhumane. My question: what specific directives are inhumane? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/185 "2018-06-18T03:34:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here’s what you said: …I know what I fucking said. > [@](#): > > So now we’re talking about directives. OK. I’ve been crystal clear on what I have been talking about with every single post. If you keep missing my point then that isn’t my fault. > [@](#): > > My position is: the directives apparently in play here are cruel and lack compassion, but I don’t agree they are “inhumane.” > **[Oxford Languages | The Home of Language Data](https://languages.oup.com/)** > > Explore Oxford Languages, the home of world-renowned language data. “Without compassion for misery or suffering; cruel.” My position is: your position is inherently contradictory. > [@](#): > > You apparently do believe those directives to be inhumane. What I actually said: > [@ME](#): > > The reality is that parents are being separated from their children at borders and that the people at the borders are “making things up” because there are no formal “procedures” in place. We don’t know where the girls are. We don’t know where the infants are. > > This is, by any measure, inhumane. And it is a direct result of directives from the Trump administration. You will note that I did not claim the directives were inhumane. I claimed the results of the directives are inhumane. Please do try and keep up. I know how you play the game and I’ve told you I’m not playing it. > [@](#): > > My question: what specific directives are inhumane? See above. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/186 "2018-06-18T04:12:30Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Please do try and keep up. I know how you play the game and I’ve told you I’m not playing it. I didn’t agree that a useful synonym for “inhumane,” is cruel, but I will certainly concede that to the extent you believe the terms are synonymous, you have every right to use the word. And I will also concede that it’s not simply your belief: you have a good dictionary source. So I think the problem here is mine. In my view, “inhumane” represents several orders of magnitude beyond merely “cruel,” or “lacking compassion.” But it looks like that’s my idea, and not the dictionary’s. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/187 "2018-06-18T04:22:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So I think the problem here is mine. In my view, “inhumane” represents several orders of magnitude beyond merely “cruel,” or “lacking compassion.” But it looks like that’s my idea, and not the dictionary’s. …fair call. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/188 "2018-06-18T06:15:00Z")
“Lacking compassion” is the passive form of “inhumane”, “cruel” requires a willful and positive effort. Like how fretting the fine distinctions between synonyms is kinda dumb, but doing it seriously is totally retardo with awesome ranch sauce. That’s, like, an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/189 "2018-06-18T12:12:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is cruel, and lacks compassion, and uses immigrants as pawns in a political battle, all of which I dislike. > > But it’s really not “inhumane.” First rule of holes, friend. First rule of holes. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/190 "2018-06-18T12:34:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s also remember why a big number of these families are showing up in the US: fleeing horrible violence in their own countries. The idea of these parents showing up in the US, hoping to find a home where they won’t be tracked down and murdered, only to find that their children are taken away not simply as a logistical consequence of not having appropriate places to house them, but as a punishment for fleeing their gang-ridden hometowns. > > It’s evil. Just pure malevolence. Can people in gang-ridden areas of Chicago or Detroit successfully gain asylum in Canada? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think not. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/191 "2018-06-18T12:37:17Z")
Speaking of ridiculous fights over essentially synonymous words and phrases, apparently the big semantic fight going on over the past day is whether [these things](https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/1008683701708906498) can be called ‘cages’ or whether that’s too loaded a term so you should opt for ‘chain-link partitions,’ ‘chain-link holding areas,’ or some such. How wonderfully Orwellian. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/192 "2018-06-18T12:37:38Z")
There’s really no better use of the miracle of the Internet than to start and then carry on a protracted debate on the point at which chartreuse needs to be called green, and identify all the idiots who don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/193 "2018-06-18T12:42:13Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Can people in gang-ridden areas of Chicago or Detroit successfully gain asylum in Canada? Seriously, wtf, dude? Does this really need explaining? > [@](#): > > I think not. All too true, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/194 "2018-06-18T12:49:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > All too true, apparently. Personal insults in Great Debates? Really? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/195 "2018-06-18T12:55:59Z")
> [@](#): > > “To pretend that separated children do not grow up with the shrapnel of this traumatic experience embedded in their minds is to disregard everything we know about child development, the brain, and trauma.” [Link](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/16/america-is-better-than-this-what-a-doctor-saw-in-a-texas-shelter-for-migrant-children/?utm_term=.74121bbdcb92) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/196 "2018-06-18T13:00:25Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Personal insults in Great Debates? Really? :dubious: Sorry, I had a moment of weakness. I apologize. But seriously, do you need it explained why nobody needs to seek asylum in another country in order to escape the violence in Detroit or Chicago? And how those reasons might not be applicable to Guatemala or Honduras? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/197 "2018-06-18T13:09:46Z")
That Secretary Nielsen is denying this is even a policy is a hopeful sign that the pressure on this issue really is getting to the White House. And while my faith in my fellow Americans has received some body blows over the last couple of years, I’m hopeful that the sight and stories of crying and purposefully-temporarily-orphaned children will move more of my fellow Americans to find some decency within themselves that has been lacking as of late. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/198 "2018-06-18T13:18:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That Secretary Nielsen is denying this is even a policy is a hopeful sign that the pressure on this issue really is getting to the White House. I’ll feel a bit more charitable towards her if she ‘denies’ the policy by refusing to implement it. Until then, she’s just as in deep with this abomination as everyone else involved. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/199 "2018-06-18T13:18:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That Secretary Nielsen is denying this is even a policy is a hopeful sign that the pressure on this issue really is getting to the White House. And while my faith in my fellow Americans has received some body blows over the last couple of years, I’m hopeful that the sight and stories of crying and purposefully-temporarily-orphaned children will move more of my fellow Americans to find some decency within themselves that has been lacking as of late. Republican Congressman Hurd of Texas was on NPR this morning practically calling her a liar – the host quoted her and asked if that were true and his response was that the US is in fact separating kids from their parents. He didn’t say she lied, but rather immediately contradicted Nielsen. I can’t find a transcript or audio file. Maybe it will turn up later on the NPR site. Maybe Nielsen is saying that DHS doesn’t have that policy (it’s probably actually some other department’s practice (ICE?) to separate the kids), but once they are separated, it’s up to DHS to do something with them. So, it’s possible that she’s technically right that H&HS doesn’t have that policy. Congressman Hurd also said that this policy is creating a new and larger unaccompanied minor problem (since once the kids are separated from their parents, they become unaccompanied), and the administration isn’t ready for that either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/200 "2018-06-18T13:24:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’ll feel a bit more charitable towards her if she ‘denies’ the policy by refusing to implement it. Until then, she’s just as in deep with this abomination as everyone else involved. I don’t feel charitable towards her at all. For one, she’s lying, and for another, she hasn’t resigned rather than institute this monstrous policy. I’m saying that the fact that she feels forced to lie shows us how weak they feel defending this policy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=11)