# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/281 "2018-06-19T02:23:02Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > And therefore those relatives are suspected of committing the same crime as the parent and are not eligible to have custody. > > I understand that the motives are pure, just like a poor parent shoplifting a loaf of bread. But it remains against the law to enter this country without a proper visa. As much as some would like to open the borders to all, that is not the law, and if parents are suspected of violating the law, they go to jail, and the kids don’t go with them…just as is done to U.S. citizens. It was pointed before already: [the Trump administration is not funding the legal way that those families can enter, or discouraging the agents from admitting those families.](https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/563084/us-border-asylum/)There are reports of border agents refusing to even see the families seeking refugee status. What is happening is the criminalization of their denial to allow that right. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/282 "2018-06-19T02:23:46Z")
Y’know what, Ultravires, I don’t want to badger you with a question you’re unable or unwilling to answer. Forget that. Instead, if this is so normal, I’m curious: how many children under five have you seen made into a ward of the state for longer than a month because of a parent’s arrest (not conviction, arrest) for shoplifting? Just a number will do. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/283 "2018-06-19T02:23:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Further, if people are caught shoplifting _with their children present_, they are likely to have an abuse and neglect petition filed against them where the state takes the children pending court proceedings to remediate the parent’s further commission of crimes with the child. …do people, when caught shoplifting with their children present, get told that they are “taking your child for a bath” and then pop them on a plane and fly them across the country? And then when the parent asks “where is my child?” the response is “you are never going to see them again.”? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/284 "2018-06-19T02:25:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FOR HOW LONG? Did you miss that question before? > > FOR HOW LONG? Until trial. I agree that the speedy trial limits set in this country are far short of “speedy” (one year in my state for misdemeanors) but yes, a parent can be separated from his child for up to one year, assuming he doesn’t ask for a continuance, before he has his day in court. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/285 "2018-06-19T02:28:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Until trial. I agree that the speedy trial limits set in this country are far short of “speedy” (one year in my state for misdemeanors) but yes, a parent can be separated from his child for up to one year, assuming he doesn’t ask for a continuance, before he has his day in court. …and what is the procedure for separating a child and parent? And how does that compare with the “procedure” that is happening at the border? When a shop-lifting parent is separated from their child for a year, do they also loose any right to visitation? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/286 "2018-06-19T02:30:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and what is the procedure for separating a child and parent? And how does that compare with the “procedure” that is happening at the border? When a shop-lifting parent is separated from their child for a year, do they also loose any right to visitation? If a person is in jail and unable to post bail, he or she does not see the child except at the indulgence of a relative with whom the child resides. If the child is in state custody, there is never any jail visits. There is no procedure. The adult is taken to jail. The child is not. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/287 "2018-06-19T02:35:20Z")
Jesus Christ, this makes me sick to my stomach. I feel so helpless and just so sad. I’m ashamed of my country. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/288 "2018-06-19T02:35:48Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If a person is in jail and unable to post bail, he or she does not see the child except at the indulgence of a relative with whom the child resides. If the child is in state custody, there is never any jail visits. …so they have a right to visitation. You didn’t need to add “at the indulgence of a relative.” This isn’t about what the relatives will or won’t do. Its about the responsibility of the custodial authorities. > [@](#): > > There is no procedure. The adult is taken to jail. The child is not. No “procedure?” Really? The child is just left in the car? Or on the street? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/289 "2018-06-19T02:36:30Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > And therefore those relatives are suspected of committing the same crime as the parent and are not eligible to have custody. > > I understand that the motives are pure, just like a poor parent shoplifting a loaf of bread. But it remains against the law to enter this country without a proper visa. As much as some would like to open the borders to all, that is not the law, and if parents are suspected of violating the law, they go to jail, and the kids don’t go with them…just as is done to U.S. citizens. It also remains against the law to [refuse asylum seekers the opportunity to apply via the legally established procedure,](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/at-the-us-border-asylum-seekers-fleeing-violence-are-told-to-come-back-later/2018/06/12/79a12718-6e4d-11e8-afd5-778aca903bbe_story.html?utm_term=.79c0381ee132) and yet that’s what CBP has been doing. So how exactly are people supposed to exercise their legal right under U.S. and international law to seek asylum? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/290 "2018-06-19T02:37:36Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Until trial. I agree that the speedy trial limits set in this country are far short of “speedy” (one year in my state for misdemeanors) but yes, a parent can be separated from his child for up to one year, assuming he doesn’t ask for a continuance, before he has his day in court. And have you indeed seen even a single child turned into a ward of the state because a parent shoplifted, and left there for a year until trial? Wait–did I say a year? How about a month? A week? How many hundreds of children face this fate across our country every year? C’mon, man. You keep avoiding numbers. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/291 "2018-06-19T02:49:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Until trial. I agree that the speedy trial limits set in this country are far short of “speedy” (one year in my state for misdemeanors) but yes, a parent can be separated from his child for up to one year, assuming he doesn’t ask for a continuance, before he has his day in court. Two wrongs don’t make a right. That is because even on that issue I have seen reports of minorities an the poor getting less support (or speedy trials) and larger sentences for the same crimes and not having kids contacting their jailed parents has been seen to be detrimental to the well-being of the families and the kids. > **[Having a Parent Behind Bars Costs Children, States • Stateline](https://stateline.org/2016/05/24/having-a-parent-behind-bars-costs-children-states/)** > > © The Associated Press An inmate is shown on a television screen as his family visits him via video conferencing at a county jail in Texas. About 1.7 million children have a parent behind bars. Jamaill never knew his mother. When he was 1, his father... The goods news, on that front, is that some states are beginning to see how irrational was to leave the families with little support while the parents are incarcerated and making hard for former felons to integrate into society. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/292 "2018-06-19T03:10:30Z")
Oh for crying out tears! The length of separation is secondary to the real cruelty. The children of shoplifters and jaywalkers aren’t sent to _camps_ or kept in _cages_ or _enclosures_ where they’re attended by monitors (I cannot call them caregivers) who are forbidden to touch the children. Typically they’re placed with the other parent, or with relatives. At worst they’re placed with a foster **family**. A situation where there is an expectation of love, or at least psychological as well as physical support. And there are tracking systems in place to ensure that the children can - after some greater or lesser period - be reunited with their incarcerated parent. Not at all like the inhumane cruelty being perpetrated by this Administration. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/293 "2018-06-19T03:14:29Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Oh for crying out tears! The length of separation is secondary to the real cruelty. I somewhat disagree: the length of separation is crucial to the real cruelty. If all these conditions occurred, but families were reunited within a matter of hours, they would not be so devastating to the children, nor would there be this outcry. Even if it were a 24-hour thing, or god forbid a 48-hour thing, it’d be terrible, and there’d be an outcry, and it’d be really bad for the kids. But it’s the stretching into weeks of this separation and confinement under intolerable conditions that renders this so appalling, so cruel and unusual. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/294 "2018-06-19T03:35:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I somewhat disagree: the length of separation is crucial to the real cruelty. \ > > But it’s the stretching into weeks of this separation and confinement under intolerable conditions that renders this so appalling, so cruel and unusual. I suppose we can respectfully agree to disagree regarding primary versus secondary. If the children were placed with foster families for 12, 24, 48… hours, the impact would be real but significantly reduced. Put into cages, the impact is enormous immediately and continues at that level throughout - regardless of the time period. I suppose that in a sense this effect is cumulative, so the longer it continues the greater the total effect. Bottom line is one is the cart, the other the horse and we can disagree on which is which. But I’m sure we both agree that it’s a cart full of shit pulled by the devil’s own steed, headed straight into hell. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/295 "2018-06-19T11:02:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If building concentration camps for children is the best solution a government can come up with, then that government needs to step down. You would prefer separating children from their families because we dont have enough facilities for all? Then YOU are being cruel. Again, we just cant have open borders where we accept everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/296 "2018-06-19T11:05:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > How about letting them in, and putting them to work? Unemployment’s at 3.9%, and there’s news stories all the time about how employers can’t find workers. > > Solves two problems at once. Win-win! > > ETA: I’m being quite serious here. I’ve seen few better examples of two problems where each was the other’s solution. How long will that last? We have enough problem with taking care of our own. Look at all the homeless out there. Look at the overcrowding in our schools. Look how crowded our cities are. We cannot take in so many more. Yes, we can and should take in a few. But we cannot just open the doors and allow them all to come in like some of you suggest. Yes, they have some terrible problems at home but we cannot take in them all. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/297 "2018-06-19T11:09:23Z")
> [@andros](#): > > QFT. > > **Urbanredneck** , if you honestly see concentration camps for destitute families to be _in any sense, at any time_ a morally acceptable solution, I’m deeply saddened. I’d also have to challenge your claim that you “hate” the idea. > . You would prefer they have to live in the streets? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/298 "2018-06-19T11:11:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …so they have a right to visitation. You didn’t need to add “at the indulgence of a relative.” This isn’t about what the relatives will or won’t do. Its about the responsibility of the custodial authorities. > > No “procedure?” Really? The child is just left in the car? Or on the street? They do not have a right to visit with their children while in jail. None whatsoever. As far as procedure, I thought you meant the procedure to separate the parent from child. In that case, there is no procedure. The adult is going to county jail. The child does not go to county jail and sit in the cell with others accused of crimes. Typically when a person is being arrested, the police will attempt to locate a relative to take temporary custody of the child. If they are unable to do so, the child is placed in foster care. With this situation at the border, there are not enough foster families to take all of these children. This is a terrible situation, no doubt, but its not our fault. We have to deal with what amounts to a de facto invasion on our southern border. The blame belongs to the Mexican government who cannot get into the 21st century and establish a first world society without the graft and corruption which leads to drug lords running the show. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/299 "2018-06-19T11:11:19Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It must be viscerally painful for you to hang around a place like this, where posters use George Carlin’s infamous Seven Words with abandon. Do YOU answer someone DEMANDING and cursing at you? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/300 "2018-06-19T11:41:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Why isn’t “catch and release” used to describe folks who commit any number of other offenses? To be fair, it’s been used even to describe law-abiding Americans who aren’t suspected of any crime. Particularly, that’s the phrase that was used to describe the combination of the 2000 Census and its followup, the Accuracy and Coverage Evaluation that was used to determine the extent of any undercount. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=16)