# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/341 "2018-06-19T17:40:17Z")
To be fair, with children even outside of the current mess, border agents often do want some sort of identification and proof of guardianship. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/342 "2018-06-19T17:47:16Z")
No, but you can damn sure bet that some parents who are deported to face fear and likely death, and know that their children as safe in America and will most likely stay…will shrug and accept. Because the kids are why they did it. Wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/343 "2018-06-19T17:53:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No, but you can damn sure bet that some parents who are deported to face fear and likely death, and know that their children as safe in America and will most likely stay…will shrug and accept. Because the kids are why they did it. > > Wouldn’t you? I’d have second thoughts about my child’s new homeland if the last view I had was her in a cage stuffed with other kids and clutching her only possession-a foil sheet. This is so obviously Trump saying “We will kidnap your children and cage them like dogs if you come here.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/344 "2018-06-19T17:57:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d have second thoughts about my child’s new homeland if the last view I had was her in a cage stuffed with other kids and clutching her only possession-a foil sheet. This is so obviously Trump saying “We will kidnap your children and cage them like dogs if you come here.” Can’t have them [infesting](https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1009099113642778624) our pure, clean land. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/345 "2018-06-19T18:03:28Z")
Part of their induction into Muslim Sharia 13 is to teach them how to pretend to be Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/346 "2018-06-19T18:12:02Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > So the United States will use the federal government to investigate possible instances of kidnapping…inside Mexico? How will that work? We have Immigrant A claiming that child B is his step-child from his first marriage who Loves Him Very Much and wants to be free from the Violence in El Salvador. His first wife wanted him to take the child with him to be safe from the violence. > > How are we to prove or disprove ANY of that? Why would someone kidnap a child to claim asylum? If someone claims asylum, it isn’t like a magic word that lets anyone into the country in a manner immune from review by authorities. So if some dude just wants to work in the U.S., to the extent that they can sneak across the border and find work illegally, well, I understand that. By why would someone kidnap a child, turn themselves into U.S. authorities at the first chance they get (which is basically what has to happen for asylum cases), and live in limbo for months and months with a kidnapped child waiting for their claim of persecution to be adjudicated? It makes no sense whatsoever. You’ve made up a really, really stupid and imaginary risk for something that makes no sense. You might as well say that them 'messicans are gonna dress up their drugs and mary-wanna to look like babies so that brave U.S. police will let them through the border without being checked, and then go on to rape our women and vote in California elections. (Oh, wait – did I pull that from a Trump speech?) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/347 "2018-06-19T18:35:40Z")
I’m imagining all across the country, alcoholics are calling their sponsor and friend for support while they try to resist the urge to drink. Maybe their problem is that they are decent human beings, so what the heck, go ahead, get shit faced. When this shitstorm passes, you can sober up, you did it once, you can do it again. And if it doesn’t pass, then why bother? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/348 "2018-06-19T19:35:53Z")
> [@andros](#): > > There. **Urbanredneck** , I just said it. I AM THE ONLY ONE IN THIS THREAD WHO HAS DONE SO. I AM THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS THREAD TO ADVOCATE FOR OPEN BORDERS WITH NO RESTRICTIONS. > > Now, feel free to address any invective you might have toward me, and kindly stop accusing other posters of holding positions they have not stated. > . Ok, please tell us all why you want to have open borders? I will admit that yes, the USA has all the resources it needs to accommodate millions more people. Yes, our people per square foot is not nearly as bad as most other countries. The average home in the USA is bigger and houses far fewer people than in other countries. BUT, we like it that way. Your right, NIMBY is out there. I am not into crowds. Crowded beaches,[pools (this one in Japan)](https://www.neatorama.com/2007/08/15/crowded-pool/), parks, schools, roads, etc… People want quiet neighborhoods not ones teeming with people. We want some space. We (well alot of people) want a large home with a backyard for all our stuff. We dont want to pay the massive taxes needed for all the infrastructure. What your thinking is a very massive reconstruction of this countries social and economic system. How do you propose we get that to happen? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/349 "2018-06-19T19:40:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ok, please tell us all why you want to have open borders? > > I will admit that yes, the USA has all the resources it needs to accommodate millions more people. Yes, our people per square foot is not nearly as bad as most other countries. The average home in the USA is bigger and houses far fewer people than in other countries. > > BUT, we like it that way. Your right, NIMBY is out there. I am not into crowds. Crowded beaches,[pools (this one in Japan)](https://www.neatorama.com/2007/08/15/crowded-pool/), parks, schools, roads, etc… People want quiet neighborhoods not ones teeming with people. We want some space. We (well alot of people) want a large home with a backyard for all our stuff. I’m sure you’ll be fine. Like, I’m completely sure. Totally. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/350 "2018-06-19T19:41:06Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > We want some space. We (well alot of people) want a large home with a backyard for all our stuff. We dont want to pay the massive taxes needed for all the infrastructure. _We don’t smoke marijuana in Muskogee We don’t take our trips on LSD We don’t burn our draft cards down on Main Street We like livin’ right, and bein’ free_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/351 "2018-06-19T19:58:20Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > How would you deal with: > > - People who were caught at the border previously, but say they were forced to sign documents in English that they didn’t understand regarding their willingness to leave the U.S. without formal deportation proceedings? (This happens with astonishing frequency.) I’d say they would be permitted to mount a collateral attack on the presumption that they understood what they were waiving. > [@](#): > > - People who were in deportation proceedings previously (and then either left voluntarily or were deported) years ago, or even recently, but experienced events in their home country in the interim that forced them to flee again? I’d say that it’s fair to detain them and process their new asylum claim. I’d also say that maybe we could break free some of hat Border Wall money to fund ALJs on site (or via closed circuit TV) to make some threshold determinations. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/352 "2018-06-20T00:06:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Right. BUT THEY DON’T REMOVE THE CHILD FROM THE HOME, do they? If they don’t have a home, yes. Why wasn’t the thousands of alien children in group homes not a problem during the Obama administration? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/353 "2018-06-20T00:10:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If they don’t have a home, yes. > > Why wasn’t the thousands of alien children in group homes not a problem during the Obama administration? [Because it was nothing like the current concentration camps.](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/) > [@](#): > > Obama’s immigration policy specifically sought to avoid breaking up families. While some children were separated from their parents under Obama, this was relatively rare, and occurred at a far lower rate than under Trump, where the practice flows from a zero tolerance approach to illegal border-crossings. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/354 "2018-06-20T00:11:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If they don’t have a home, yes. > > Why wasn’t the thousands of alien children in group homes not a problem during the Obama administration? Again, that was not set as a policy as it is now. [https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2018/06/18/myths-and-facts-trumps-separation-families-and-detention-children-us-mexico-border/220468#Myth:%20Past%20administrations%20had%20the%20same%20policy%20of%20separating%20families](https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2018/06/18/myths-and-facts-trumps-separation-families-and-detention-children-us-mexico-border/220468#Myth:%20Past%20administrations%20had%20the%20same%20policy%20of%20separating%20families). > [@](#): > > Myth: Past administrations had the same policy of separating families. > > President Trump himself has falsely claimed that he inherited the policy of family separation from Democrats. Others in right-wing media have suggested the policy began with President George W. Bush’s “Operation Streamline,” a 2005 attempt to prosecute all illegal border crossings. > > Fact: The Obama administration detained families together. According to Vox, beginning in 2014, the Obama administration “put hundreds of families in immigration detention” together. However, a federal court ruled that the administration could not keep the families detained for so long without justifying why they were being detained. Many families therefore were released while their immigration or asylum cases worked through the court system. Conservatives derisively called this practice a “catch and release” program. **While the Obama administration did have “scattered cases of family separation,” Trump’s routine family separation “has formalized into policy what is just a cruel and inhumane practice.** ” ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/355 "2018-06-20T01:36:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So in other words, although you didn’t say it, the answer to my question is “zero.” Cool! > > New question: how many children have you ever HEARD of whose parents were charged with shoplifting and who, because of this charge, became wards of the state for a month or longer? > > I think the number is still “zero.” I expect that, rather than answer the question, though, you’ll hem and haw and throw up distractions and irrelevancies about the paucity of statistics on the subject. > > You started this by citing your extensive experience working with cases involving neglect and abuse. You made your experience relevant. So pony up: how many have you heard of? > > Zero, right? I have worked in child welfare for 23 years and have never seen a parent placed in jail for shoplifting. Parents do not lose their rights simply because they are incarcerated. If parents are incarcerated for serious crimes they still have the right to visit with their children and we make every effort to arrange this. It is sometimes difficult based on the location of the jail site, the facility restrictions, the ages of the children, etc. but yes, there are visits. I can’t believe how low this administration has fallen with respect to human rights and common human decency. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/356 "2018-06-20T02:40:06Z")
[AP reveals that there are three shelters in Southern Texas…_for babies and toddlers_](https://apnews.com/dc0c9a5134d14862ba7c7ad9a811160e/Youngest-migrants-held-in-'tender-age'-shelters). Who here has the unmitigated gall to defend this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/357 "2018-06-20T03:26:00Z")
> [@Ellecram](#): > > I have worked in child welfare for 23 years and have never seen a parent placed in jail for shoplifting. So in your 23 years of experience, you’ve seen numerous shoplifters jailed, but they were all childless? Really? That’s an amazing coincidence. To what do you attribute this lack of criminality after one becomes a parent? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/358 "2018-06-20T03:30:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So in your 23 years of experience, you’ve seen numerous shoplifters jailed, but they were all childless? > > Really? > > That’s an amazing coincidence. To what do you attribute this lack of criminality after one becomes a parent? What’s your position on tearing babies and toddlers from their parent’s arms and putting them in baby prison camps? Or are you more concerned with playing “gotcha” word games? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/359 "2018-06-20T03:30:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So in your 23 years of experience, you’ve seen numerous shoplifters jailed, but they were all childless? > > Really? > > That’s an amazing coincidence. To what do you attribute this lack of criminality after one becomes a parent? Damn, Bricker. Are you really valuing snark over reading carefully? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/360 "2018-06-20T03:35:32Z")
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