# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/21 "2018-06-16T21:35:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As illegal border crossing is a misdemeanor, not a felony, it would be a better question to ask what happens to the children of people awaiting a trial to see if they will be paying a fine. Well, I guess the problem with either comparison — felony or misdemeanor — is that, as I understand it, if we stop a lone would-be border-crosser and find out that he’s on the brink of breaking that law, we _don’t_ let him in once he pays a fine; we still shoo him away, right? So for the parallel to really work, I guess we need a scenario where the outcome of the trial could be “you don’t get to be in this country”. Still, I’d genuinely like to hear all of the answers: what do we do when some guy is awaiting a misdemeanor trial and a kid is in the mix; what do we do when some guy is awaiting a felony trial and a kid is in the mix; what do we do when, I dunno, exile is on the table and a kid is in the mix? What do we do when anything even remotely like this comes up, is my question. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/22 "2018-06-16T21:43:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Let’s say he is caught possessing a small amount of an illegal drug (also a misdemeanor) with the child in his care. Do you lose your children for possession of a small amount of an illegal drug? > [@](#): > > Say he shoplifts? Do you lose your children if you are charged with shop lifting? > [@](#): > > What if the parent is unable to post bond? Are these asylum seekers given a chance to post a bond? > [@](#): > > Does the child sit in the holding cell with him? Under the assumption that we have made decision to incarcerate them for being charged with a misdemeanor, is there anything physically preventing that from happening? > [@](#): > > Further why do you make the felony/misdemeanor distinction? Because TOWP was asking about felonies, with possible consequences of life imprisonment or execution. > [@](#): > > Many people are unable to post bonds on misdemeanors. And that is actually a problem with our legal system that should be addressed as well, that people sit for months, or even years in jail, awaiting a trial for crimes that doesn’t even require a prison sentence. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/23 "2018-06-16T21:44:33Z")
Missed the edit window: The DHHR in my state routinely files abuse and neglect petitions and removes children whose parents commit crimes in their presence. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/24 "2018-06-16T21:48:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, I guess the problem with either comparison — felony or misdemeanor — is that, as I understand it, if we stop a lone would-be border-crosser and find out that he’s on the brink of breaking that law, we _don’t_ let him in once he pays a fine; we still shoo him away, right? So for the parallel to really work, I guess we need a scenario where the outcome of the trial could be “you don’t get to be in this country”. > > Still, I’d genuinely like to hear all of the answers: what do we do when some guy is awaiting a misdemeanor trial and a kid is in the mix; what do we do when some guy is awaiting a felony trial and a kid is in the mix; what do we do when, I dunno, exile is on the table and a kid is in the mix? What do we do when anything even remotely like this comes up, is my question. Generally, in the legal system, we do whatever is most punitive and painful for the family and the child. Not sure really that we should model other things on what are already harmful practices to our citizenry. Be better to fix our problems than make sure that others suffer for them. There aren’t all that many situations remotely like this, other than this situation. We don’t have exile, we only have deportation of people we’ve decided don’t belong here. But, in general, if a kid is taken from a family that is not capable of legally caring for it, it goes into child protective services. There will be fostering, maybe orphanage type of thing. But not tent cities in the southern desert in summer. How many children will we suffer to die in those conditions before anyone bothers to give a shit? I know we let adults die from exposure in these conditions without doing anything about it, I doubt that the “compassionate conservatives” will give one more damn about children, as long as the are of the wrong skin color and nationality. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/25 "2018-06-16T21:49:09Z")
But this crime is unique in that it is a misdemeanor where there is a great unlikelihood that the defendant will appear for trial if released on any bond. Even if a bond is set and he cannot post it, do we really put children in holding cells with their parents? I think the answer is that those on the left do not consider border crossing to be a “real” crime like DUI or domestic battery, therefore, there should not be arrests at all. Then, change the law. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/26 "2018-06-16T22:13:28Z")
The OP is too general, and assumes we are all talking about the illegal immigration/asylum issue. There are certainly some times when children need to be separated form their parents. One might even argue that illegally smuggling children across the border (especially in dangerous circumstances) is child abuse. But, as noted, this is a new policy rooted in punishing the parents or deterring future border crossing by others, not protecting the child. It’s using children as pawns in a policy ploy. We should not be doing this. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/27 "2018-06-16T23:05:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But this crime is unique in that it is a misdemeanor where there is a great unlikelihood that the defendant will appear for trial if released on any bond. Even if a bond is set and he cannot post it, do we really put children in holding cells with their parents? > > I think the answer is that those on the left do not consider border crossing to be a “real” crime like DUI or domestic battery, therefore, there should not be arrests at all. Then, change the law. These are asylum seekers. They generally turn up, because if they don’t then their chances of being granted asylum are zero. As far as bonds that cannot be posted, like I said earlier, that’s a problem with our legal system in general. If we want to solve that issue as well, tat’s great, otherwise, it’s a distraction. As far as “real crime”, sure illegal immigration is. But it is not a felony, and it does not have a victim, so I would treat it more along the lines of possession of drugs crime than a DUI or battery, where you have actual or potential victims of physical harm. And as far as asylum seekers, which is what we are talking about here, they are not committing any crime at all. Even if they are turned down, they still did not commit a crime when they crossed the border with the intent of seeking asylum. They would only commit a crime by staying i the country after being rejected or after not showing up for their court date. It would be like charging someone for trespassing on their neighbor’s lawn while their house burned down and taking away their children. Even if you say they can’t stay on their neighbor’s lawn, you still can’t charge them with trespassing and tell them that you are taking their children away for a bath, never to be seen again. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/28 "2018-06-16T23:34:51Z")
Let’s also remember why a big number of these families are showing up in the US: fleeing horrible violence in their own countries. The idea of these parents showing up in the US, hoping to find a home where they won’t be tracked down and murdered, only to find that their children are taken away not simply as a logistical consequence of not having appropriate places to house them, but as a punishment for fleeing their gang-ridden hometowns. It’s evil. Just pure malevolence. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/29 "2018-06-17T00:17:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s also remember why a big number of these families are showing up in the US: fleeing horrible violence in their own countries. The idea of these parents showing up in the US, hoping to find a home where they won’t be tracked down and murdered, only to find that their children are taken away not simply as a logistical consequence of not having appropriate places to house them, but as a punishment for fleeing their gang-ridden hometowns. > > It’s evil. Just pure malevolence. Well now that is a separate issue but it is something I agree on. We must do more to help those people back in their home countries so they do not have to move here. As I understand it alot of the newer immigrants are from Central America fleeing violence. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/30 "2018-06-17T00:27:53Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Ahhhh, but Trump and Republicans now admit that without 60 guaranteed votes in the Senate, then they “don’t” have a majority. Pot, kettle, black I’m sure they’d get a lot of Democratic votes if they proposed a simple bill to stop doing this. I wouldn’t be surprised if they got more Democratic votes than Republican votes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/31 "2018-06-17T00:28:54Z")
I see it as part and parcel of the same issue. These people are essentially fleeing for their lives from gang wars, and we are going to tell them, “Go somewhere else, or we will take your children! Hope ya don’t get murdered!” I don’t see how anyone can countenance this policy and still assert they care about humanity. ETA: responding to **urbanredneck** ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/32 "2018-06-17T00:33:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > snip… I am reading most immigrants arrive with children, even if they are not theirs, because they think they will get automatic asylum. How about a cite for the mentioned reading, please, and bringing someone else’s kids to be put through such. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/33 "2018-06-17T00:34:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Also reprehensible was Sessions trying to hide behind religion: > > “I would cite you to the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13, to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained them for the purpose of order,” he said. This one isn’t complicated. Even if all you know about Jesus is what your average secular person knows, you’d know that Jesus would hate gratuitous cruelty to children. You don’t even need to crack a Bible to know Sessions is wrong. But if you’re a Christian and you need more than that, consider “love your neighbor as yourself.” This is one of the two Great Commandments, encompassing the Law and the Prophets. You interpret other Scriptures in the light of these, not the other way around. If your interpretation of some other Scripture justifies actions that run roughshod over “love your neighbor as yourself,” as this policy does, _you’re doing it wrong._ It’s that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/34 "2018-06-17T00:35:53Z")
Here is [an article in the Texas Monthly](https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/) that goes into detail about how and why these policies are being carried out. The last time I had a visceral reaction of this kind to reading about what my government is doing on my behalf it was about Abu Ghraib. How fucking dare they? We need to be shouting about this. It’s beyond wrong, and it’s the sort of thing you get from immoral pricks like Trump and Sessions and the people who elected them. The latter group can begin redeeming themselves by leading the resistance to this inhumanity. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/35 "2018-06-17T00:42:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As far as “real crime”, sure illegal immigration is. But it is not a felony, and it does not have a victim, so I would treat it more along the lines of possession of drugs crime than a DUI or battery, where you have actual or potential victims of physical harm. But, again, what complicates the analogy is that, if a guy gets caught in possession of drugs, he doesn’t simply pay a fine and then get handed back those drugs so he can keep on possessing them; and, if he gets caught starting up a car before he actually does any driving under the influence, he doesn’t just serve time behind bars before being told that he can now go out and drive under the influence. And, likewise, if a guy gets caught trying to illegally slip across the border, the idea is that he gets penalized _and then doesn’t get to stay,_ right? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/36 "2018-06-17T01:28:50Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But, again, what complicates the analogy is that, if a guy gets caught in possession of drugs, he doesn’t simply pay a fine and then get handed back those drugs so he can keep on possessing them; and, if he gets caught starting up a car before he actually does any driving under the influence, he doesn’t just serve time behind bars before being told that he can now go out and drive under the influence. > > And, likewise, if a guy gets caught trying to illegally slip across the border, the idea is that he gets penalized _and then doesn’t get to stay,_ right? That would make sense, if agents at the border would not turn away people that can apply for asylum. > **[Trump keeps making it harder for people to seek asylum legally](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17428640/border-families-asylum-illegal)** > > It’s legal to seek asylum at an official border crossing. But border agents are blocking people from getting that far. > [@](#): > > It’s legal to seek asylum at an official border crossing. But border agents are blocking people from getting that far. > [@](#): > > But some immigrants who try to seek asylum the “right way” are being turned away and told there’s no room for them now. And there’s evidence that border agents are physically blocking some asylum seekers from setting foot on US soil — in other words, from triggering a legal right to claim asylum in the US — to begin with. > > Over the weekend, journalist Robert Moore (writing for Texas Monthly) witnessed a group of Guatemalans try to cross the bridge that connects Ciudad Juarez in Mexico to El Paso, Texas. They aimed to present themselves at the official US port of entry, on the other side of the bridge, where Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials check the papers of people entering the country. But at the top of the bridge — right where Mexican territory ends and US territory begins — the group was stopped by CBP agents and asked for identification, and then told that there wasn’t room at the port of entry to process asylum claims. > > Ultimately, three of the Guatemalans, who had proceeded a few steps into US territory, were allowed to go through to the port. But according to Moore, those who hadn’t yet set foot in US territory were blocked from doing so: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > Two CBP agents who had been standing a few feet from the border stepped forward and stood directly on the line. I witnessed one of the agents, whose nametag said Augustin, take a couple steps into Mexico to prevent one of the Guatemalans from crossing into the United States. CBP spokesman Maier later said port officials denied that any agent crossed into Mexico. > > > > ``` > > Advocates have long alleged that government officials illegally turn away people trying to present themselves for asylum at ports of entry. (The Trump administration maintains that it’s not turning anyone away — just trying to manage limited capacity by telling people to come back when they can be processed.) But stopping people before they can set foot in the US is an apparent escalation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/37 "2018-06-17T01:34:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you lose your children for possession of a small amount of an illegal drug? No one is losing their child. They’re being separated while in custody. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/38 "2018-06-17T01:34:45Z")
As for what they do with children of people that are arrested for other reasons in the USA, there are organizations that look for the welfare of the children of the people that are incarcerated. > **[Supporting Children and Families Affected by Parental Incarceration - Child...](https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/supporting/support-services/incarceration/)** > > Presents resources focusing on parenting programs, family strengthening, and community supports for parental incarceration and family-centered services. It looks like so far, that agencies like those ones are not being consulted at all regarding the children of the people asking for asylum. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/39 "2018-06-17T01:39:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So what are we supposed to do? I am reading most immigrants arrive with children, even if they are not theirs, because they think they will get automatic asylum. Hahaha, that’s a good one! Could you please describe for the audience how exactly this works? “Hey Luiz, I’m heading up to the border where I am certain to get arrested! Can I borrow your kid for extra sympathy points?” “Sure Hector, go ahead! Just make sure the kid joins MS-13 as soon as he gets there, that’s his real family!” That one little statement about borrowing a kid to defeat the immigration system packs a lot of assumptions into it. Immigrants value their children less? Immigrants are happy to lend out their children to defeat the border authorities? Immigrants are dumb enough to think a sad story and a crying kid will be the magic bullet that the border authorities cannot defeat? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/40 "2018-06-17T01:51:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No one is losing their child. They’re being separated while in custody. Again, not the way it should be done, and there are other reasons why it should not. > **[What a Parent Behind Bars Does to a Child’s Education](https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/11/how-parental-incarceration-affects-a-childs-education/414720/)** > > “Through it all, children suffer.” > [@](#): > > The researchers also found that a child who’s had a parent in prison is more likely than one who hasn’t to experience additional “adverse childhood experiences,” or ACEs—long-term, “toxic” circumstances such as witnessing domestic or community violence, suffering from extreme poverty, or living with someone who’s mentally ill. Research has shown that ACEs, especially when they’re cumulative, often cause childhood trauma, which can ultimately result in poor immunity and mental-health problems in adulthood and even early mortality. As James Perrin, the president of the American Academy of Pediatrics, told The Atlantic’s Olga Khazan last year, “If you have a whole bunch of bad experiences growing up, you set up your brain in such a way that it’s your expectation that that’s what life is about.” > > Parental incarceration often acts as one such ACE because it causes a confusing, troubling loss of an attachment figure and involves ongoing contact with law enforcement, the corrections system, and child-welfare officials. But what Murphey and Cooper find is that having a parent in prison is likely to coincide with even more traumatic experiences: Children who’ve undergone parental incarceration suffer from 2.7 ACEs on average, according to their analysis of of the National Survey of Children’s Health, which lists 8 ACEs total. Children who haven’t experienced parental incarceration suffered from 0.7 ACEs on average. > > Ultimately, the researchers conclude that “the harm associated with parental incarceration can compound the already difficult circumstances of vulnerable children,” a reality that’s particularly evident in their schooling. Yet, as the University of Minnesota paper shows, education policy has done little to address these kids’ particular needs. And in this age of mass incarceration, perhaps it should. In his recent cover story for The Atlantic about the topic, Ta-Nehisi Coates described mass incarceration as a vicious cycle that victimizes entire families, holding them “in a kind of orbit, on the outskirts, by the relentless gravity of the carceral state.” > > “Through it all,” Coates wrote, “children suffer.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=3)