# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/401 "2018-06-20T18:26:50Z")
The moral American ladies and gentlemen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/402 "2018-06-20T18:31:11Z")
And it gets worse: [Immigrant children are being forcibly drugged into compliance.](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/immigrant-children-forcibly-drugged-powerful-psychotropics-texas-treatment-center-lawsuit/#.WyqQpDI8aWk.twitter) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/403 "2018-06-20T20:02:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And it gets worse: [Immigrant children are being forcibly drugged into compliance.](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/immigrant-children-forcibly-drugged-powerful-psychotropics-texas-treatment-center-lawsuit/#.WyqQpDI8aWk.twitter) According to the complaint your article cites, these drugging practices preceded Trump’s presidency. That makes them no less horrible, but does suggest that perhaps Trump is not at fault for all of them. Of course, Trump could stop it now. Of course, Schumer could agree to let the bills stopping it go to a vote now, too. Trump remains the offender-in-chief. He’s the prime villain. Just not the only one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/404 "2018-06-20T20:14:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course, Schumer could agree to let the bills stopping it go to a vote now, too. What makes you think he’s doing so? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/405 "2018-06-20T20:15:31Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Children are “punished” in every instance where a parent engages in criminal activity in their presence. After a domestic battery incident, children are further traumatized by having to see one or both parents placed into handcuffs and taken away. > > People in the system use that as a “deterrent” all of the time. We tell them to remember the look on the child’s face when you think about smacking your girlfriend again. > > I feel terrible for these children, but it is not our fault that they are in the situation that they are in. Yes, we could choose not to prosecute their parents, but they are undoubtedly committing crimes. We might as well say that we shouldn’t prosecute domestic battery because the children will have to see their parents handcuffed. I think the argument here, if I may be permitted a summary attempt, is: (1) Yes, children are taken from parents when those parents are arrested (2) But domestically, that decision is made for practical reasons (3) Here, the apparent purpose of the “zero tolerance” rule is to punish the parents for their lawbreaking, as opposed to an unintended but necessary secondary effect So when we put bracelets on a domestic violence arrestee, we’re doing so to protect his victims. We don’t want the kids to suffer, but we accept that suffering that comes from seeing a parent taken away because there are no better options available. Here, there are better options available. There are even, I dare say, better options available if you want to continue to criminally prosecute illegal entry with zero-tolerance. The choice to do things this way is not an unintended secondary effect: it’s part of the plan. I’d suggest that this is a bad plan for that reason, amongst others. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/406 "2018-06-20T20:37:32Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Or if the arrest is after 3:00 pm, it seems very,very likely that there could be a 12 year old child at home alone. Doesn’t CPS need to be involved? [more hijack] At the age of 12 I routinely got myself home from school and stayed there on my own until mom got home at 5:30 pm. I am continually gobsmacked by this notion that leaving a 12 year old alone for a second is inherently neglect/abuse. And no, I didn’t grow up in some idyllic small town, I grew up in the Detroit area. [/more hijack] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/407 "2018-06-20T20:52:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course, Schumer could agree to let the bills stopping it go to a vote now, too. > > Trump remains the offender-in-chief. He’s the prime villain. Just not the only one. As pointed before, Trump wants still to get his super villain wall going. And using the children as hostages to do so. So one should not call people that do not want to negotiate with hostage takers villains too. > **[Republicans in Congress look for way out of border crisis as Trump publicly...](https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-children-migrants-20180619-story.html)** > > Senate Republicans mobilized on Tuesday to end the administration’s policy of separating children from their migrant parents — and the mounting political backlash — as President Trump publicly held firm, warning that those illegally crossing the... > [@](#): > > McConnell’s deputy, Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas), said the Senate could act “in a matter of days, hopefully this week.” More than a dozen Senate Republicans signed a letter to Atty. Gen. Jeff Sessions urging him to suspend family separations until a legislative fix can be signed into law. > > “I don’t think anyone has the patience to let him hold children hostage for a wall,” **one senior Republican aide** in the Senate said. “He can get that funding the old-fashioned way, through a budget request.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/408 "2018-06-20T22:05:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Again, that was not set as a policy as it is now. That’s not what I asked. Why wasn’t the thousands of alien children in group homes not a problem during the Obama administration? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/409 "2018-06-20T22:20:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not what I asked. Why wasn’t the thousands of alien children in group homes not a problem during the Obama administration? AFAIK most of them were with their parents. Perhaps you are talking about the ones that came with no parents. Or perhaps you are telling us that not criticising that that then it means that Trump should be allowed to use the children as hostages. That is still asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/410 "2018-06-20T22:22:04Z")
I hear they’ve come up with a compromise to the separation issue. Now, mothers will only get to keep one child and they will be forced to choose which one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/411 "2018-06-20T22:42:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not what I asked. Why wasn’t the thousands of alien children in group homes not a problem during the Obama administration? Do you have a cite that thousands of children were separated from their parents by US officials during the Obama administration? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/412 "2018-06-20T22:44:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you have a cite that thousands of children were separated from their parents by US officials during the Obama administration? Preferably [not from anyone involved with Breitbart](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=857194). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/413 "2018-06-21T00:39:51Z")
…so they have finally managed to track down some of the missing girls. Only because somebody leaked and they were seen on the streets…of New York. > ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/414 "2018-06-21T01:39:15Z")
We have a very disturbing and difficult situation. I think this is just for warm-up. The very nature of illegal immigration has changed. Isn’t it apparent that the level of desperation has risen, and still rising? What moves someone to spend every dime they have in order to take a chance…a chance, mind you!..to get their children into America. Not even a good chance. Just a _chance!_ I think its safe to conjecture, if not actually assume, that the situation in Central America is…challenging. Difficult. Horrendous. Bad enough to risk the lives of your entire family on a slim chance of acceptance. How bad does it have to be? Is there any reason to believe its going to get better, real soon? Well, maybe, sure, I guess. Can’t say I know anything about day to day life in Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador. Don’t know if anybody really does, but the evidence to hand is that people will do damned near _anything_ to escape. Maybe they are willing to risk their family’s lives for a chance to eat at Burger King. Kinda doubt it. And the turd in the punchline? That no good deed goes unpunished. If we are kind, and Christian, and merciful…we will give them hope. Those who are here are risked their lives with\* little \*hope, how many more will take that risk if there is more hope? What is worse? To cruelly refuse sanctuary to the fearful and helpless, relentlessly, without exception? Or to be welcoming and humane, and provoke an avalanche of desperate people? When is hope poison? What is to be done? Maybe Trump could start publicly worrying that the Chinese may take over in Central America, give them a chance to play at economic imperialism. We dominated for better than a century, they could hardly do worse. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/415 "2018-06-21T02:03:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think the argument here, if I may be permitted a summary attempt, is: > > (1) Yes, children are taken from parents when those parents are arrested > (2) But domestically, that decision is made for practical reasons > (3) Here, the apparent purpose of the “zero tolerance” rule is to punish the parents for their lawbreaking, as opposed to an unintended but necessary secondary effect > > So when we put bracelets on a domestic violence arrestee, we’re doing so to protect his victims. We don’t want the kids to suffer, but we accept that suffering that comes from seeing a parent taken away because there are no better options available. > > Here, there are better options available. There are even, I dare say, better options available if you want to continue to criminally prosecute illegal entry with zero-tolerance. The choice to do things this way is not an unintended secondary effect: it’s part of the plan. > > I’d suggest that this is a bad plan for that reason, amongst others. I have read a number of comments here regarding children being removed from parents who are charged with crimes. I would like to briefly summarize what happens in those instances from my experience in child welfare where I have worked as a caseworker and supervisor for more than 23 years. It looks nothing like the horror show that is going on at US borders. When children are taken into custody the parents have the opportunity to go before the court shortly after despite incarceration. In PA we are mandated to have a shelter hearing within 72 hours and a disposition/adjudication hearing within 10 days. Parents are appointed an attorney if they can’t afford one. If a determination is made that the children need to remain in placement a reunification plan must be established within 30 days of placement. The plan addresses the issues that necessitated the original custodial action. The parents are given the opportunity to participate in the development of this plan. Thereafter, court hearings before a judge are held at least every 3 months to review the placement status and in many cases more frequently. The reunification plan includes parent/child visitation requirements. By law parents must be given the opportunity to visit at least twice a month. In most cases visits occur more often. With infants and young children visitation is generally court ordered for at least once or twice a week. When children are removed we are mandated to place them in the least restrictive environment. Typically we are able to find a family member who comes forward as a placement resource. If a family member is not available we are required to place the child in a family setting. Only in very extreme cases (disruptive behaviors, mental health issues, etc.) are children place in institutional settings. Our policies have changed significantly over the past several years as research on the impact of trauma on child development has become available. On top of whatever adversity they are trying to escape from these children are experiencing unbelievable (and preventable) trauma that will impact their lives for years to come. It will impact their emotional, physical and cognitive development and how they function in society. I am shocked beyond words that this is happening. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/416 "2018-06-21T09:05:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > According to the complaint your article cites, these drugging practices preceded Trump’s presidency. That makes them no less horrible, but does suggest that perhaps Trump is not at fault for all of them. Yeah, it seems to be rooted more in the tender mercies of the private prison industry. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/417 "2018-06-21T09:06:18Z")
Has anyone [linked to this story](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/immigrant-children-forcibly-drugged-powerful-psychotropics-texas-treatment-center-lawsuit)? > [@](#): > > Reveal reported Wednesday that minors held at the Shiloh Treatment Center in Manvel, Texas — described in its Google+ listing as a “baby gulag” — were physically abused and given shots of “powerful” psychiatric medications that “rendered them unable to walk, afraid of people and wanting to sleep constantly.” > > In the affidavits, the children and their parents said workers at the facility told them they would not be allowed to leave or see their parents if they didn’t take the medicine, which was administered via shots. The children were allegedly told the shots were “vitamins.” > > “The supervisor told me I was going to get a medication injection to calm me down,” one girl said. “Two staff grabbed me, and the doctor gave me the injection despite my objection and left me there on the bed.” > > According to one mother, her child “fell repeatedly, hitting her head, and ended up in a wheelchair.” Another “described trying to open a window and being hurled against a door by a Shiloh supervisor, who then choked her until she fainted.” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/418 "2018-06-21T11:17:05Z")
Has anyone [linked to this story](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/immigrant-children-forcibly-drugged-powerful-psychotropics-texas-treatment-center-lawsuit)? > [@](#): > > Reveal reported Wednesday that minors held at the Shiloh Treatment Center in Manvel, Texas — described in its Google+ listing as a “baby gulag” — were physically abused and given shots of “powerful” psychiatric medications that “rendered them unable to walk, afraid of people and wanting to sleep constantly.” > > In the affidavits, the children and their parents said workers at the facility told them they would not be allowed to leave or see their parents if they didn’t take the medicine, which was administered via shots. The children were allegedly told the shots were “vitamins.” > > “The supervisor told me I was going to get a medication injection to calm me down,” one girl said. “Two staff grabbed me, and the doctor gave me the injection despite my objection and left me there on the bed.” > > According to one mother, her child “fell repeatedly, hitting her head, and ended up in a wheelchair.” Another “described trying to open a window and being hurled against a door by a Shiloh supervisor, who then choked her until she fainted.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/419 "2018-06-21T13:25:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We have a very disturbing and difficult situation. I think this is just for warm-up. > > The very nature of illegal immigration has changed. Isn’t it apparent that the level of desperation has risen, and still rising? What moves someone to spend every dime they have in order to take a chance…a chance, mind you!..to get their children into America. Not even a good chance. Just a _chance!_ Why would the level of desperation be rising when this hemisphere, as well as the whole world, has historically low levels of conflict, poverty, and oppression? > [@](#): > > I think its safe to conjecture, if not actually assume, that the situation in Central America is…challenging. Difficult. Horrendous. Bad enough to risk the lives of your entire family on a slim chance of acceptance. There are situations where people do genuinely flee en masse. Central America is not one of them. 0.1% of the population is headed our way. There is no humanitarian crisis. What there is, is poverty and crime. If that’s now an asylum case, then every citizen in every Third World country has a fundamental right to enter the US and claim asylum. > [@](#): > > How bad does it have to be? Is there any reason to believe its going to get better, real soon? Well, maybe, sure, I guess. Can’t say I know anything about day to day life in Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador. Don’t know if anybody really does, but the evidence to hand is that people will do damned near _anything_ to escape. Maybe they are willing to risk their family’s lives for a chance to eat at Burger King. Kinda doubt it. Well first, as I’ve pointed out, there is not a big Central American refugee problem. We’re talking tens of thousands of people in a region with 45 million. > [@](#): > > What is worse? To cruelly refuse sanctuary to the fearful and helpless, relentlessly, without exception? Or to be welcoming and humane, and provoke an avalanche of desperate people? When is hope poison? What is to be done? That is the big question. I’m in favor of generosity and mercy, but how do we translate that into policy? Seems that such a policy would look a lot like the one we have now: 1. Asylum for people fleeing government oppression, societal oppression due to minority status, or specifially targeted for death and whose governments can’t or won’t protect them. High crime and poverty are not asylum cases. 2. Legal avenues for economic migrants or those just seeking a better life, with caps to prevent us getting swamped. 3. Enforcement against those who enter illegally for economic purposes. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/420 "2018-06-21T13:43:58Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Has anyone [linked to this story](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/immigrant-children-forcibly-drugged-powerful-psychotropics-texas-treatment-center-lawsuit)? See posts 402, 403, 416, and 😉 417. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=22)