# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/461 "2018-06-21T19:28:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Do you ever do any research before offering legal theories? Have you bothered to try to learn how equal protection claims apply to the exercise of prosecutorial discretion? I don’t see how a specific, stated policy of not prosecuting people for certain crimes because they have kids is a valid use of prosecutorial discretion. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/462 "2018-06-21T19:30:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You can’t possibly be serious with this. The murder rate where they live is not a whole lot worse than the murder rate in the places they are likely to be able to settle here. The jobs are better though, which is the real issue. I’d also point out that if we actually care about giving them asylum from gang violence that we’d work really hard to make sure gangs can’t follow them here. But immigration activists seem pretty unconcerned about the gangs coming here and terrorizing immigrant communities in the US. You know, what they were supposedly trying to escape? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/463 "2018-06-21T19:31:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t see how a specific, stated policy of not prosecuting people for certain crimes because they have kids is a valid use of prosecutorial discretion. Well, as has been pointed out in other threads, if you are not a prosecutor then you shouldn’t be opining on how they do their job. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/464 "2018-06-21T19:36:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > American taxpaying families get a tax credit for each kid they have. Does that violate equal protection? > > But aside from all your predictions and conjecture, I think you do have a fundamentally sound point: decisions on which immigrants may have a bad claim to asylum needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. A single person with no kids who had a great life until MS-13 put a contact on him/her need not be automatically locked up; if the Central American equivalent of the Manson family shows up in Texas, they need not be automatically released into whatever supervisory program they could be eligible for. And what would you prefer we do with them in the interim, while their case is awaiting judicial review? That is, I think, the crux of this issue, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/465 "2018-06-21T19:45:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Doesn’t matter what progressives think, detaining singles and letting families go is bad policy. And probably illegal, since it violates equal protection. :rolleyes: The court conclusions that make the EO from Trump to be suspect already said that you are imagining laws not only about families, but for singles as well. > **[The Flores settlement, the court order Trump blames for family separation,...](https://www.vox.com/2018/6/20/17484546/executive-order-family-separation-flores-settlement-agreement-immigration)** > > The settlement Trump blames for causing the problem could be an obstacle to using an executive order to solve it. > [@](#): > > The Flores settlement now at the center of the family separation crisis has a 30-year history. In the 1980s, several lawsuits were filed over the treatment of unaccompanied minors who were in the care of the US government. One was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union in 1985 on behalf of Jenny Lisette Flores, a 15-year-old from El Salvador. She had fled her home country to find an aunt who was living in the United States, but she was detained by federal authorities at the US border. > > Flores and other minors in federal custody sometimes had to share sleeping quarters and bathrooms with unrelated adult men and women. Flores was strip-searched regularly, and she was told she could only be released to her parents, not her aunt. The ACLU asserted in its lawsuit that Flores and other unaccompanied children had a constitutional right to be released to “responsible” adults, as the Marquette Law Review documented in a review of the Flores settlement’s history. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/466 "2018-06-21T19:45:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, as has been pointed out in other threads, if you are not a prosecutor then you shouldn’t be opining on how they do their job. Prosecutors aren’t making this decision. It’s an administration decision. And they don’t know shit. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/467 "2018-06-21T20:03:48Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And what would you prefer we do with them in the interim, while their case is awaiting judicial review? That is, I think, the crux of this issue, isn’t it? In general, if someone makes a reasonable claim to risking harm if returned to their country, and there’s a fair case to be made that they aren’t threats to anyone, they should be enrolled in the various programs that provide them with getting started up in living in the U.S., subject to various degrees of monitoring or supervision. From what I’ve read recently, these programs are quite successful at having participants show up to court, and are much, much cheaper than detention. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/468 "2018-06-21T20:05:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My claim was a prediction of what happens when you create an incentive. Are you implying that this doesn’t, and won’t, happen? Are you claiming that people are not crossing the border with kids in their custody who are not their own? Admittedly, my ancestors crossed into the US without passports, visas, or prior permission, but the children they brought with them were their own. I know it’s hard to grasp, but ALL of the people crossing the border are human beings and have a right to humane treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/469 "2018-06-21T20:13:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The murder rate where they live is not a whole lot worse than the murder rate in the places they are likely to be able to settle here. A few years ago, your posts were generally marked by unsupported statements that you just really appeared to beeeeelllllleeeeeeeeive so hard to be true. But you didn’t seem to care about whether your gut was telling you the right thing. Then, for quite some time, it seems to me that your approach changed. Now, you’re clearly back to your old ways. When I looked up the homicide rate for various places, it looks like the overall U.S. murder rate is roughly about ten times lower than the places where most of the folks come from. But you know what? That isn’t even the whole story. Because there’s a lot of claims that individuals are being targeted for violence because of things they’ve done, not just because they think their home is too dangerous. If you bothered to read about this issue, I think you’d come across this quite easily. > [@](#): > > I’d also point out that if we actually care about giving them asylum from gang violence that we’d work really hard to make sure gangs can’t follow them here. But immigration activists seem pretty unconcerned about the gangs coming here and terrorizing immigrant communities in the US. You know, what they were supposedly trying to escape? More bullshit, yada yada yada. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/470 "2018-06-21T20:37:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The murder rate where they live is not a whole lot worse than the murder rate in the places they are likely to be able to settle here. The jobs are better though, which is the real issue. :rolleyes: > **[El Salvador: Homicides increased in the first month of 2018](https://latinamericanpost.com/americas/el-salvador-homicides-increased-in-the-first-month-of-2018/)** > > More than half a million people could be linked to various criminal structures  > [@](#): > > According to official figures of 2016, in the Latin American and the Caribbean region the homicide rate reached an average of 24 deaths per 100.000 inhabitants. In Central America, the figure increased to 34 per 100.000 inhabitants. However, when homicide rates are observed in the so-called ‘Northern Triangle’, which is constituted by Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador, this same rate exceeds 50 murders per 100.000 inhabitants. The states where Central Americans are more likely to end are California and Texas: For California the murder rate is 4.8 per 100.000 inhabitants, For Texas it is at 5.3 for the last year reported. > [@adaher](#): > > I’d also point out that if we actually care about giving them asylum from gang violence that we’d work really hard to make sure gangs can’t follow them here. But immigration activists seem pretty unconcerned about the gangs coming here and terrorizing immigrant communities in the US. You know, what they were supposedly trying to escape? As I can count as one of them, I can tell you that you are a big ignorant about that. More than once I pointed in this message board about being OK with capturing gang members, but there was a lot of miscomunication with authorities in Central America when the USA deported those gang members to Central America. Caring then would require to increase aid to Central American nations to not only increase the number of them into Central American jails, but also to integrate former gang members into society. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/471 "2018-06-22T00:56:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t see how a specific, stated policy of not prosecuting people for certain crimes because they have kids is a valid use of prosecutorial discretion. [Why don’t you ask a bunch of former U.S. attorneys?](https://medium.com/@formerusattorneys/bipartisan-group-of-former-united-states-attorneys-call-on-sessions-to-end-child-detention-e129ae0df0cf) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/472 "2018-06-22T17:30:13Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Wait, they are asking for asylum because of violence back home. Not government sponsored like nazis killing Jews. Its violence from gang wars and crime. > Well heck, sounds like many American communities. > > So how can they hope for asylum from that? You know, you really can leave Kansas City if you want to. And Illinois won’t throw you in jail for wanting to move to it. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/473 "2018-06-23T14:55:06Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Until trial. I agree that the speedy trial limits set in this country are far short of “speedy” (one year in my state for misdemeanors) but yes, a parent can be separated from his child for up to one year, assuming he doesn’t ask for a continuance, before he has his day in court. Sorry to jump in a few days late, but this needs correcting. People awaiting trial on misdemeanors don’t wait a year in custody awaiting trial. The maximum sentence for any misdemeanor in my state (and I believe in yours) is one year. It would be ridiculous to force the accused to serve the maximum sentence or even more before even determining whether he is guilty. In any case, I don’t see how inhumane treatment by a state government justifies inhumane treatment by the federal government. No one should be held in custody for long periods for minor crimes. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/474 "2018-06-25T01:11:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the last administration deliberately made a choice to subvert our immigration policy with catch and release. > > This is probably the first time the kids were properly fed, housed and given the chance to play games on a regular basis. Housing these kids has been going on for some time and only became newsworthy recently. > > It’s this week’s edition of Trump of the Month hate club. I don’t give a shit if they’re staying at a luxury hotel. Being separated from their parents is harmful in more ways than you can imagine. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/children-allege-grave-abuse-at-migrant-detention-facilities/ar-AAyZrRe?pfr=1](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/children-allege-grave-abuse-at-migrant-detention-facilities/ar-AAyZrRe?pfr=1) > **[Trump's reported 'tent city' for migrant kids is already a humanitarian...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/15/1772219/-Trump-s-reported-tent-city-for-migrant-kids-is-already-a-humanitarian-disaster-in-waiting?detail=emaildksc)** > > Campaign Action > > The Trump administration’s first “tent city” for migrant children will reportedly be in Tornillo, Texas, where, according to Think Progress, “the average temperature in the area this summer will hover around 100 degrees... Are you okay with babies and toddlers being separated and detained as well? > **[Babies and toddlers sent to 'tender age' shelters under Trump separations](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/20/babies-and-toddlers-sent-to-tender-age-shelters-under-trump-separations?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=tender%20age%20shelters&utm_campaign=WJH%3A%20Family%20Separation%2C%20Government%20Gaslighting%20-%20June%202018)** > > Lawyers and medical providers visiting Rio Grande Valley shelters describe play rooms of crying preschool-age children in emotional crisis Liars, assholes, sadists, and hypocrites: > **[How the Trump Administration Is Defending the Indefensible](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/how-the-trump-administration-is-defending-its-indefensible-child-separation-policy.html)** > > A game of choose your own logic, law, facts, and victims that always ends with screaming children in cages. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/475 "2018-06-25T22:45:41Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I don’t give a shit if they’re staying at a luxury hotel. Being separated from their parents is harmful in more ways than you can imagine. > > [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/children-allege-grave-abuse-at-migrant-detention-facilities/ar-AAyZrRe?pfr=1) > > [Trump's reported 'tent city' for migrant kids is already a humanitarian disaster in waiting](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/15/1772219/-Trump-s-reported-tent-city-for-migrant-kids-is-already-a-humanitarian-disaster-in-waiting?detail=emaildksc) > Are you okay with babies and toddlers being separated and detained as well? > > [Babies and toddlers sent to 'tender age' shelters under Trump separations | US immigration | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/20/babies-and-toddlers-sent-to-tender-age-shelters-under-trump-separations?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=tender%20age%20shelters&utm_campaign=WJH%3A%20Family%20Separation%2C%20Government%20Gaslighting%20-%20June%202018) > > Liars, assholes, sadists, and hypocrites: > > [How the Trump administration is defending its indefensible child separation policy.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/how-the-trump-administration-is-defending-its-indefensible-child-separation-policy.html) There were thousands and thousands of children separated from their parents under Obama. That you suddenly feel a crisis is at hand is a function of political hype. We’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/476 "2018-06-25T22:56:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There were thousands and thousands of children separated from their parents under Obama. That you suddenly feel a crisis is at hand is a function of political hype. Cite for those thousands of children separated under Obama? The opposite is what is going on. > **[Fact check: Did the Obama administration separate families?](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/23/trump-obama-administration-separate-families-immigration/728060002/)** > > In defending its “zero tolerance” border policy that has caused the separation of families, the Trump administration has argued that the Obama and Bush administrations did this too. That’s misleading. Experts say there were some separations under... > [@](#): > > MPI’s Pierce said that the likely reason information isn’t available on child separations under previous administrations is because it was done in “really limited circumstances” such as suspicion of trafficking or other fraud. > > “Previous administrations used family detention facilities, allowing the whole family to stay together while awaiting their deportation case in immigration court, or alternatives to detention, which required families to be tracked but released from custody to await their court date,” Brown and her co-author, Tim O’Shea, wrote in an explainer piece for the Bipartisan Policy Center’s website. “Some children may have been separated from the adults they entered with, in cases where the family relationship could not be established, child trafficking was suspected, or there were not sufficient family detention facilities available. … However, the zero-tolerance policy is the first time that a policy resulting in separation is being applied across the board.” > > Jeh Johnson, DHS secretary under the Obama administration, told NPR earlier this month that he couldn’t say that family separations “never happened” during his tenure. “There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency. There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child. I can’t say it never happened but not as a matter of policy or practice. It’s not something that I could ask our Border Patrol or our immigration enforcement personnel to do,” Johnson said. > > The Obama administration faced a surge of unaccompanied children from Central America trying to cross the border in 2014. Cecilia Muñoz, director of the Obama administration’s Domestic Policy Council, told the New York Times this month that a multi-agency team was considering “every possible idea” at the time, including separating families. “I do remember looking at each other like, ‘We’re not going to do this, are we?’ We spent five minutes thinking it through and concluded that it was a bad idea,” the Times quoted Muñoz saying. “The morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are.” > [@Magiver](#): > > We’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. [It is very, very likely that Trump and his administration is violating our laws, besides international ones.](https://qz.com/1309188/trumps-family-separation-policy-nielsens-detainment-claim-is-challenged-by-two-rules/) If we are a nation of laws you do not support the ones that avoid them or twist them to get inhumane results. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/477 "2018-06-25T22:57:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There were thousands and thousands of children separated from their parents under Obama. That you suddenly feel a crisis is at hand is a function of political hype. > > We’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. Your first paragraph is not accurate. You can look up the facts for yourself. Or I can provide some links for you later. As for the second paragraph, is there actually a law saying that we are supposed to separate kids from parents like those? If there is, can the law not be changed? Trump claimed that his hands were tied by the Democrats and then a few days later he signed an executive order reversing what he had just said. Now he says he doesn’t want the immigrants to receive any due process. Is he not violating a law? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/478 "2018-06-25T22:58:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There were thousands and thousands of children separated from their parents under Obama. That you suddenly feel a crisis is at hand is a function of political hype. > > We’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. They both the same, and the President can’t do what he just done. Any other words of wisdom? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/479 "2018-06-25T23:00:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Cite for those thousands of children separated under Obama? The opposite is what is going on. > > [Immigration: Did the Obama administration separate families?](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/23/trump-obama-administration-separate-families-immigration/728060002/) > > [It is very, very likely that Trump and his administration is violating our laws, besides international ones.](https://qz.com/1309188/trumps-family-separation-policy-nielsens-detainment-claim-is-challenged-by-two-rules/) If we are a nation of laws you do not support the ones that avoid them or twist them to get inhumane results. People were following the law when they kept slaves. But that was a fucked-up law. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/480 "2018-06-26T00:13:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Cite for those thousands of children separated under Obama? The opposite is what is going on. [cite](http://www.newsweek.com/trump-administration-holding-more-immigrant-children-shelters-ever-949099) again, we’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. It’s only a crisis when Trump does it because the Democratic party has declared it so and you’re just parroting the latest call to arms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=25)