# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/481 "2018-06-26T00:51:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [cite](http://www.newsweek.com/trump-administration-holding-more-immigrant-children-shelters-ever-949099) From your cite: > [@](#): > > At the time, the dramatic increase in the number of unaccompanied children arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border had “reached a crisis proportion” by June 2014 There is difference between children arriving at the border unaccompanied and children arriving with their parents and being separated by the U.S. government. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/482 "2018-06-26T00:58:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [cite](http://www.newsweek.com/trump-administration-holding-more-immigrant-children-shelters-ever-949099) > > again, we’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. > > It’s only a crisis when Trump does it because the Democratic party has declared it so and you’re just parroting the latest call to arms. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > From your cite:There is difference between children arriving at the border unaccompanied and children arriving with their parents and being separated by the U.S. government. What he said, and it is telling that **Magiver** did choose to ignore what ours and international laws are saying about the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/483 "2018-06-26T01:28:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What he said, and it is telling that **Magiver** did choose to ignore what ours and international laws are saying about the matter. What is telling is that it was not a crisis when Obama did it. ---
**Author:** ![rob0225](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9e8a1a/32.png) [@rob0225](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rob0225)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/484 "2018-06-26T01:37:14Z")
Don’t these asylum seekers from central america have an obligation to request asylum from the first safe country…Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/485 "2018-06-26T01:53:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What is telling is that it was not a crisis when Obama did it. Do I have to tell that I explained that earlier too, but you are choosing to ignore it? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/486 "2018-06-26T01:59:51Z")
> [@rob0225](#): > > Don’t these asylum seekers from central america have an obligation to request asylum from the first safe country…Mexico? > **[Why Central American Refugees Will Keep Coming to the U.S.](https://time.com/5318718/central-american-refugees-crisis/)** > > "There is no way we can turn back" > [@](#): > > Gusman’s story illustrates the brutality that is pushing many to leave the Northern Triangle of Central America, which includes Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador, and seek refuge in nearby countries, including Mexico and the United States. **The number of asylum applications in Mexico has rocketed, from 2,000 in 2014 to more than 14,000 last year** , with Honduras as the leading source of applicants, according to the United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR). > > However, this surge comes as more Mexicans are themselves fleeing violence to seek refuge in the United States. In the first three months of 2018, the Northern Triangle nations and Mexico made up four of the six top source countries of applicants for U.S. asylum, government data shows. > > “People are leaving because they are suffering from high levels of violence from gangs and other organized criminal groups. These gangs want to recruit minors, they carry out extortion, kidnapping, sexually abusing girls,” says Francesca Fontanini, spokesperson for the UNHCR in the Americas. “This flow of families from Central America will not stop because if the root causes are still there these people will keep coming to the U.S. or to other countries.” So yes, many do, but some also have to then flee from Mexico’s violence and they are more likely to know relatives in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/487 "2018-06-26T02:56:23Z")
I am in Malaysia at the moment. It’s been a good year for the advance of democracy here (first time an opposition party won nationally), BUT then there are today’s headlines, all about fear of FOREIGN MICROBES – literally!! – making Malaysians sick. Some state governments have been passing regulations to prohibit “foreigners” (legal resident aliens) from working in restaurants that serve ethnic Malay cuisine. University scientists actually did a study of microbes on the gloved hands of cooks, and presented the data (percentage of illness-causing bacteria) categorized by each cook’s ethnicity and/or citizenship status. I thought I was reading the Onion, but no, they’re serious! I’m not an expert, but I get the feeling that the new ruling coalition attracted voters from all three long-resident ethnic groups (Malay Malaysians, Chinese Malaysians, and Indian Malaysians) – so now, to prove their nationalist bona fides to the majority Malays, they’re turning attention to non-citizens – recent immigrants from (I think) places like Myanmar, the Philippines, and Indonesia. DANGER LURKS IN THEIR HANDS! Food handlers are a source of foodborne disease outbreaks in Malaysia [http://mystar.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx](http://mystar.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx) “Be warned – a spotless food outlet is no guarantee of a clean bill of health. A recent finding showed almost all foreign food handlers to be carrying microbes which could cause food poisoning, and in worst cases, even death. This revelation comes at a time when restaurants serving Malaysian fare are reeling from the government’s local cooks only policy. KUALA LUMPUR: Almost all foreign workers tested in a study were found to be carrying microbes which could cause food poisoning and even death, and a small percentage of them harboured antibiotic resistant bacteria, said researchers.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/488 "2018-06-26T03:26:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Do I have to tell that I explained that earlier too, but you are choosing to ignore it? You didn’t explain why it’s a crisis now and not 3 years ago. I did, but you didn’t. Does it bother you that the President said we’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/489 "2018-06-26T04:51:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You didn’t explain why it’s a crisis now and not 3 years ago. I did, but you didn’t. 😕 It was in the news, it was a crisis, but not related to families being separated. As others noted: No, you did not explain it because you are explaining apples and we are talking mandarins being splitted apart. 🙂 > [@Magiver](#): > > Does it bother you that the President said we’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. Again, you are just showing all that you are ignoring twice when I quoted reports showing that Trump is ignoring or violating laws. Also: What that line that you repeat looks like now: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0wxp-NxJny8/maxresdefault.jpg "Airplane- It's an entirely different kind of flying altogether") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wxp-NxJny8&t=81) ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/490 "2018-06-26T16:42:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You didn’t explain why it’s a crisis now and not 3 years ago. I did, but you didn’t. 2014 crisis = Many children from other countries arriving unaccompanied at our borders. This is a sad situation, but one that _ **our government worked to mitigate** _. 2018 crisis = Many children from other countries arriving at our borders with their parents and being forcibly separated from them by the U.S. government. This is a situation that _ **our government is creating** _. That is the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/491 "2018-06-26T23:04:36Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > 2014 crisis = Many children from other countries arriving unaccompanied at our borders. This is a sad situation, but one that _ **our government worked to mitigate** _. same cages,same crisis, different President. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/492 "2018-06-26T23:35:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > same cages,same crisis, different President. So, you believe that seeing a problem and working to solve the problem is equivalent to intentionally creating a problem in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/493 "2018-06-27T00:21:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > same cages,same crisis, different President. If you’re going to just ignore facts, then why not claim that the immigrants don’t exist at all, and it’s just child crisis actors in those photos? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/494 "2018-06-27T00:25:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You didn’t explain why it’s a crisis now and not 3 years ago. I did, but you didn’t. > > Does it bother you that the President said we’re a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. The easy way out is to yell and pretend the president can do something by violating the laws. So was the President violating the law before early May when he wasn’t arresting every single person and throwing children in concentration camps? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/495 "2018-06-27T03:15:43Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > So was the President violating the law before early May when he wasn’t arresting every single person and throwing children in concentration camps? Yes, I think President Obama and the Democratic party deliberately skirted the law with a combination of catch-and-release and sanctuary cities. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/496 "2018-06-27T04:14:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, I think President Obama and the Democratic party deliberately skirted the law with a combination of catch-and-release and sanctuary cities. I cited already how Trump is ignoring USA and international laws. **Obama was actually found to be avoiding the law when he tried to avoid having to release those families.** That, as it should had been obvious, were still together; not separated. > **[Family separation was new, but Trump’s new border policy is an Obama throwback](https://www.vox.com/2018/6/21/17488458/obama-immigration-policy-family-separation-border)** > > Trump hopes the courts will let him detain families like Obama did. > [@](#): > > Obama detained families together — until the courts stepped in > > Obama’s response to the 2014 “border crisis” was to crack down on the people he could crack down on: adults, including asylum seekers, and families. > > At the time, there were special protections (under the 1997 Flores settlement) that stopped DHS from keeping unaccompanied immigrant children in detention, but not children who had come to the US with their parents. So the Obama administration attempted to tamp down the number of Central American families seeking asylum in the US by keeping families in detention and processing and deporting them as quickly as possible. > > Immigration advocates challenged the policy of family detention under the Flores settlement. Judges agreed with them — in large part because it said the Obama administration was out of bounds in detaining migrant families for the purpose of “deterrence.” (As NBC’s Benjy Sarlin has pointed out, that’s why certain Trump administration officials have been careful not to say that family separation is a deterrent, or even a policy, now.) > > Ultimately, the Ninth Circuit ruled that the Flores settlement covered not just unaccompanied alien children but “accompanied” ones as well. It set a general standard that the government couldn’t hold them in custody for more than 20 days. Notice that AFAIK [Trump administration members or Trump himself did make statements that show that the idea was indeed for the separation of families to be a deterrent.](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/06/trump-administration-family-separation-policy-border) On that aspect, I have seen this movie before in the courts. Trump is bound to be found as breaking the law under more serious charges than Obama did when he tried to keep families under lock until their asylum cases were heard. But at least, the families stayed together. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/497 "2018-06-27T11:22:19Z")
“Federal judge orders families separated at border to be reunited within 30 days” > **[Federal judge orders families separated at border to be reunited within 30 days](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/separated-border-families-reunited-within-30-days-california-judge-dana-sabraw-rules-today-2018-06-26/)** > > If the children are younger than 5, they must be reunified within 14 days of the order, issued Tuesday > [@](#): > > McALLEN, Texas – A judge in California on Tuesday ordered U.S. border authorities to reunite separated families within 30 days, setting a hard deadline in a process that has so far yielded uncertainty about when children might again see their parents. If children are younger than 5, they must be reunified within 14 days of the order issued Tuesday by U.S. District Judge Dana Sabraw in San Diego. > > Sabraw, an appointee of President George W. Bush, also issued a nationwide injunction on future family separations, unless the parent is deemed unfit or doesn’t want to be with the child. It also requires the government to provide phone contact between parents and their children within 10 days. Will this court order be obeyed? Is it even possible within the deadlines given? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/498 "2018-06-27T11:23:13Z")
[Bill Maher gives a useful summary of Republican “thinking”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e5J_RoSB-Q) on Trump’s child abuse policy. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/499 "2018-06-27T12:25:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, I think President Obama and the Democratic party deliberately skirted the law with a combination of catch-and-release and sanctuary cities. Do you think President Trump and the Republican party deliberately skirted the law with a combination of catch-and-release and sanctuary cities between Jan 20, 2017 and May 1, 2018? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/500 "2018-06-27T15:10:38Z")
[Elizabeth Warren’s account of her trip to the border prisons](https://www.facebook.com/ElizabethWarren/posts/10155822214623687) is something you all should read. > [@Warren](#): > > The crisis at our border isn’t over. > … > Every question I asked them had a complicated answer that led to two more questions – even the simple question about how long people were held there. “Nobody is here longer than 24 hours.” “Well, maybe 24-48 hours.” “72 hours max.” And “no children are separated out.” “Well, except older children.” > … > I asked them how long they had been there – and the answers were all over the map, from a few days to nearly two weeks (72 hours max?). The CBP agents rushed to correct the detained men, claiming that their answers couldn’t be right. My immigration specialist on the trip who speaks fluent Spanish made sure the men understood that the question was, “How long have you been in the building?” Their answers didn’t change. > > Cage after cage. Same questions, same answers. > … > Next we came into the area where the children were held. These cages were bigger with far more people. In the center of the cage, there’s a freestanding guard tower probably a story or story-and-a-half taller to look down over the children. The girls are held separately in their own large cage. The children told us that they had come to the United States with family and didn’t know where they had been taken. Eleven years old. Twelve. Locked in a cage with strangers. Many hadn’t talked to their mothers or fathers. They didn’t know where they were or what would happen to them next. > … > When we went over to the mamas with babies, I asked them about why they had left their home countries. One young mother had a 4-year-old child. She said she had been threatened by the gangs in El Salvador. She had given a drink of water to a police officer, and the gang decided she must be in with the police. The longer she spoke, the more agitated she got – that she would never do that, that she understood the risk with the gangs, but that the gangs believed she did it. She sold everything she had and fled with her son to the United States. > … > The longer the day went on, the more questions I had about how the Trump administration plans to fix the crisis they’ve created at the border. So my last stop of the day was at the Port Isabel Detention Center, about an hour east of McAllen. It’s one of the largest detention facilities in Texas. > > The Department of Homeland Security had released some details on its plan to reunify families. The release noted that Port Isabel will be the “primary family reunification and removal center for adults in their custody.” > > Let’s be clear: Port Isabel isn’t a reunification center. It’s a detention center. A prison. > > There’s no ambiguity on this point. I met with the head of the facility. He said several times that they had no space for children, no way to care for them, and no plans to bring any children to his locked-down complex. When I pressed on what was the plan for reunification of children with their parents, he speculated that HHS (the Department of Health and Human Services) would take the children somewhere, but it certainly wasn’t going to be to his facility. When I asked how long HHS would take, he speculated that it would be weeks, but he said that was up to them. He had his job to do: He would hold these mothers and fathers until he received orders to send them somewhere else. Period. > > So let me say it again. This is a prison – not a reunification center. This is a difficult account to read. There is no way that this is the best solution to any immigration problem whatsoever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=26)