# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/61 "2018-06-17T07:32:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All this can easily be corrected by eliminating sanctuary cities and voting on the immigration act which should be an easy task for Democrats. The [immigration act in the House that Ryan won’t bring to the floor](https://www.texastribune.org/2018/06/14/paul-ryan-opposes-separating-immigrant-children-parents/) because it doesn’t satisfy the Pedophile Hastert Rule? Or the [act to stop children being removed from their families](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/3036/text) in the Senate that has exactly zero Republican sponsors or support? Tell me again how it’s the Democrats’ fault. “Party of Personal Responsibility”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/62 "2018-06-17T07:47:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The people who do this, there is a common story. They gather all the cash they can beg or borrow, and give it to unreliable men who will guide them on a dangerous journey. With no guarantee they will even arrive, much less be admitted. And if they fail, they either die or will be returned to whatever desperate situation moved them to flee in the first place. Worse off than when they left. > > And they take their kids. How desperate and fearful would you need to be to take such a slim chance? How many have died trying, how many died after we sent them back. We have no idea, not the slightest. > > This is an awful situation, likely to get worse, as Central America falls from brutal autocracy to mere anarchy. Can’t say with any honesty I know what to do. But I’m _damn_ sure we can do better than this. Some take their kids. Others are human traffickers who think they’ve found an easy way to move merchandise. Look, Mexico is not a hellhole. It’s a middle income country with a universal health care system and everyone has birth certificates and/or adoption papers. They can prove that the kids are theirs. They can give real identities to submit to background checks. “Oh, never mind all that, just let them in without checking” isn’t really a policy either. But it’s the one critics of the current policy seem to want. Of course, the other alternative is to keep everyone in custody together until everything can be checked out. Problem is, current law limits holding children to 20 days. So you either put the kids with relatives or in the system, or you just let the adults and children in, whether they are actually family or not, and then they just disappear. So the obvious change to the policy is to allow families to be held indefinitely together. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/63 "2018-06-17T07:48:18Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > He appears to believe that the immigrants are responsible for their own abuse. To blame the victims of authoritarian abuse is not just unconstructive and bizarre, but shows an appalling lack of empathy and perspective. > > Many of these immigrants are continuing northward and [crossing into Canada](https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-sees-surge-in-border-crossings-600-entered-last-weekend-1.3873597), where at least they’re treated humanely. Technically they aren’t permitted to apply for refugee status because of the Safe Third Country Agreement to which Canada and the US are signatories, stating that a refugee must apply for asylum in the first “safe” country in which he or she lands. This is increasingly being overlooked because the US is manifestly not a safe haven for most of these people, who are simply arrested and systematically deported. It’s been argued that the Safe Third Country Agreement is pretty much meaningless in Trump’s America, just like the inscription on the Statue of Liberty. > All of which they’ve already done. There’s a bigger reason the US isn’t a safe haven: most are fleeing gang violence and in our compassion we’re letting the gangs follow them here. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/64 "2018-06-17T09:33:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s a bigger reason the US isn’t a safe haven: most are fleeing gang violence and in our compassion we’re letting the gangs follow them here. That’s just incoherent. First of all the huge upsurge in refugee seekers illegally crossing the border from the US to Canada started when Trump became president, and the reasons are perfectly clear: they’ve become the targets of systematic discrimination. Some of them have studied and worked in the US on various temporary visas for a decade or more, tried and failed to obtain US citizenship, and now Trump is telling them they’re just no longer welcome and had better haul ass out of the country, despite their own homelands being in a state of chaos, upheaval, or civil war. And the immigration authorities, as we’ve seen, are acting with extraordinary brutality in enforcing these various anti-immigrant measures. I don’t see a hell of a lot of this alleged “compassion” you refer to. Yet you would have us believe that there’s so much compassion going around that even gang members from those same targeted countries are being cheerfully admitted and granted residency status, despite the fact that these blameless hardworking people were never able to get that status themselves and are now being summarily thrown out. And that for some reason these imaginary gang members are terrorizing the immigrants, who are seeking to escape to Canada where presumably the gang members can’t follow, because … reasons. This article may be of interest: Last winter, after Donald Trump’s inauguration, there was a sharp increase in “irregular border crossings” all across the Canada-U.S. border: people sidestepping official ports of entry and trying to reach safety by walking through the woods, across clearings, or over ditches. … Monday, November 20, the Trump administration made good on its threats to remove more than 50,000 Haitians from a program that currently allows them to live and work legally in the United States. In 20 months, they will be stripped of all protection and subjected to deportation. The administration has already announced it will be kicking Nicaraguans out of the same program and has suggested it may do the same to Hondurans next year. In September, Sudanese people got word that they’re getting the boot as well. Salvadorans are expected to be next. > **[Canada Prepares for a New Wave of Refugees as Haitians Flee Trump’s America](https://theintercept.com/2017/11/22/canada-prepares-for-a-new-wave-of-refugees-as-haitians-flee-trumps-america/)** > > This week the Trump administration removed more than 50,000 Haitians from TPS, a program that allows them to live and work in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/65 "2018-06-17T09:54:26Z")
That program is temporary. It was long overdue to end in all those cases. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/66 "2018-06-17T10:05:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I didn’t create sanctuary cities. They’re being used to deliberately hide illegal aliens.This is not up for debate. That’s the reality of the situation. It was a deliberate political effort by the Democratic Party to circumvent the law. Could you explain to us what laws the sanctuary cities are breaking? And then could you explain what that has to do with horribly punishing children who have no connection with those cities by needlessly and gratuitously ripping them from their parents? ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/67 "2018-06-17T10:06:31Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Hahaha, that’s a good one! Could you please describe for the audience how exactly this works? > > “Hey Luiz, I’m heading up to the border where I am certain to get arrested! Can I borrow your kid for extra sympathy points?” > > “Sure Hector, go ahead! Just make sure the kid joins MS-13 as soon as he gets there, that’s his real family!” > > That one little statement about borrowing a kid to defeat the immigration system packs a lot of assumptions into it. Immigrants value their children less? Immigrants are happy to lend out their children to defeat the border authorities? Immigrants are dumb enough to think a sad story and a crying kid will be the magic bullet that the border authorities cannot defeat? > > Come on. That’s not how it works. You are traveling north towards the United States with other people. At some point people realize that they can pretend to be family members in order to try to influence border guards. They are probably even advised to do that along the way. It’s an easy way to get some sympathy. Why would you not do it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/68 "2018-06-17T10:12:59Z")
[Paul Ryan](https://twitter.com/SpeakerRyan/status/1008035156295344128), yesterday: > [@](#): > > My life changed the day I became a father. Liza, Charlie, and Sam are my highest priority. Wishing all of the dads out there a happy early #FathersDay Especially those dads who’ve just had their kids taken away from them, that Paul Ryan will do nothing about. Happy Father’s Day, dudes! Thank goodness this horrible man’s days of “public service” are nearly at an end. 200 days and counting down. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/69 "2018-06-17T10:18:09Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > That’s not how it works. You are traveling north towards the United States with other people. At some point people realize that they can pretend to be family members in order to try to influence border guards. They are probably even advised to do that along the way. It’s an easy way to get some sympathy. Why would you not do it? Can you explain what good it does them to “influence border guards”? What authority do the guards have to determine their fate? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/70 "2018-06-17T10:28:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s a bigger reason the US isn’t a safe haven: most are fleeing gang violence and in our compassion we’re letting the gangs follow them here. The fact is, violent crime in the U.S. has been cut in half in the past 25 years, and by all indications, that’s just as true in Hispanic communities as it is among us gringos. You know what? The only times I read about this wave of violence by MS-13 gangbangers is when I hear about it from Trump and his minions (including Fox News and the like). I could cherry-pick a handful of incidents and turn it into a wave of white working-class violence, to demonstrate that them rednecks are all animals and need to be locked up, just as easily as Trump & Co. are doing about MS-13. I’m not saying that MS-13 doesn’t exist, or that they never kill anyone, but I’ll bet that for most Latinos in the U.S., MS-13 isn’t something they spend their days worrying about. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/71 "2018-06-17T10:32:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I didn’t create sanctuary cities. They’re being used to deliberately hide illegal aliens.This is not up for debate. That’s the reality of the situation. It was a deliberate political effort by the Democratic Party to circumvent the law. In what can only be described as a coordinated effort the sanctuary cities were fed by way of a catch-and-release initiative. > > the only way to stop this is to end the catch-and-release program and incarcerate those breaking the law. That does not include their children. [they’ go to shelters](https://www.npr.org/2018/06/14/620085615/these-are-not-kids-kept-in-cages-inside-a-texas-shelter-for-immigrant-youth) where they’re probably better cared for than their parents while they await foster care. > > All this can easily be corrected by eliminating sanctuary cities and voting on the immigration act which should be an easy task for Democrats. My brain hurts. Help walk me through the logic. X, therefore Y, therefore we _must_ abuse children and break families apart. I mean, I’m not some deontologist who thinks the ends can _never_ justify the means, but for god’s sake, man, _what end is so goddamn important?_ ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/72 "2018-06-17T10:59:15Z")
> [@Huey\_Freeman](#): > > … White folks are masters at cloaking hateful policies under the thin veneer of “law and order” and manifest destiny". This is true and not at all racist, every white person I know does this. I assume it’s genetic since my mixed race son can only manage to cloak mildly inconveniencing policies this way, not fully hateful ones, it’s a source of great disappointment in my family. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/73 "2018-06-17T11:20:53Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > You’re an animal; you’re not human. C’mon, that’s not even trying to stay within the rules. Warning issued. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/74 "2018-06-17T12:02:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The way it should be done is to follow the rule of law in the first place. Absolutely! Persons seeking asylum have a legal right to present themselves to a border crossing to request asylum. U.S. border guards, clearly following the instructions of those higher up, are blocking their access to border crossings. This is blatantly illegal. Following the rule of law must start with those charged with enforcing it. If they don’t obey the law, then they’re just another gang, using the law as a weapon against The Other. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/75 "2018-06-17T12:42:25Z")
> [@Question for Republicans: If Trump wins the Nomination...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-for-republicans-if-trump-wins-the-nomination/739332/10): > > Donald Trump is not going to be any worse than Barack Obama or GWB. > [@I predict that Donald Trump is going to win the election for POTUS this year.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-predict-that-donald-trump-is-going-to-win-the-election-for-potus-this-year/747810/9): > > … People really do not want to vote for Hillary Clinton. Who wants to listen to her cackling and yelling at you for the next 8 years? That would just be torture. At least Donald Trump is just a clown. @ OP — should we conclude your views have evolved? > [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > This is a dastardly deed that Trump and Sessions have planned. it seems to me that they are doing this in order to force the Democrats to vote for their stupid border wall which nobody wants. I also think that they are using this as an opportunity to indoctrinate the immigrants to our country instead of allowing them to just come here and roam free. > > This isn’t something that our country should be involved in. How low will we go? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/76 "2018-06-17T12:43:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > You’re an animal; you’re not human. The irony is that this sort of dehumanizing language is a necessary predicate to committing the human rights violation the administration is committing. The irony is that engaging in this sort of dehumanization of one’s political enemies is a quintessentially human behavior. There’s a meme I’ve seen, along the lines of, if you ever wondered what you would’ve done during the rise of Nazi Germany, it’s what you’re doing now. Folks are answering that question for us. Godwin’s law is becoming increasingly superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![Textual\_Innuendo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@Textual\_Innuendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Textual_Innuendo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/77 "2018-06-17T12:43:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Usually politicians seek political advantage from the extreme protection of children. The effort to derive political advantage from the wanton abuse of children is a refreshing change. Amen! Personally, I’m hoping the Republicans will go whole-hog, and bring back child-sacrifices to Baal and Moloch. How do we know that we haven’t lost our way because we’ve gotten all liberal and wishy-washy about child sacrifice? MAGA! I mean, they may lose a few voters in the blue and purple states, but it won’t affect their base, and they’ll still control the House, Senate, and Presidency - so really what do they have to lose? Let’s give it a try, everybody! Let’s make America great again! _Ol Zodameta **Moloch** Micalzo Graa De Acharayim!_ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/78 "2018-06-17T14:10:04Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Tell me again how it’s the Democrats’ fault. Sanctuary cities and catch-and-release. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/79 "2018-06-17T14:20:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sanctuary cities and catch-and-release. Hmm, nope! Sorry, but “sanctuary cities” are not, in fact, the reason immigrants are being separated from their children. Neither is “catch-and-release”. Neither one of these policies (or, in the case of sanctuary cities, lack of policy) actually is causing this - _that_ policy was instituted by the Trump administration. You may be able to draw a line between the existing policy which _does_ separate immigrants from their children and those things, but that doesn’t make this atrocity somehow the fault of those behind sanctuary cities and catch-and-release, unless that line is somehow a logical necessity. In which case you need to make that clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/80 "2018-06-17T14:27:18Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > You’re an animal; you’re not human. You have to wonder, does he not believe in the [spark of divinity, the dignity and worth of every person?](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/05/17/nancy_pelosi_ms-13_gang_members_are_not_animals.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=5)