# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/121 "2018-06-17T17:42:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I believe we should not be re-enforcing behavior we don’t think is in the best interest of the country. Encouraging people to set government policy based on religion isn’t something I want to see happen. Of course it does happen all the time, and maybe you didn’t hear our AG, Jeff Sessions, quote the New Testament (Paul) in support of this current action. Yes, we did hear it. And that is why the question of what the book that he is quoting is all about is relevant. If he feels it is relevant to justify hateful practices with a bible quote, then it is more than fair game to challenge the assertion that the bible describes a religion based on hate. If that’s what christians want to go for, and accept that their religion is a justification for hatred, then that’s a change that they can make, but they need to stop virtue signalling by talking about being a “Good Christian man”, as what they are defining as a good christian is a terrible human. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/122 "2018-06-17T17:48:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, we did hear it. And that is why the question of what the book that he is quoting is all about is relevant. > > If he feels it is relevant to justify hateful practices with a bible quote, then it is more than fair game to challenge the assertion that the bible describes a religion based on hate. > > If that’s what christians want to go for, and accept that their religion is a justification for hatred, then that’s a change that they can make, but they need to stop virtue signalling by talking about being a “Good Christian man”, as what they are defining as a good christian is a terrible human. Eh. We’re not a theocracy, and thank goodness for that. Feel free to encourage that if you think it’s useful. I’ve said all I care to on the subject, at least in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/123 "2018-06-17T17:55:46Z")
Didn’t Sessions just invoke the Bible in defense of this bullshit? If so, WWJD? is not just a rhetorical question on a messege board. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/124 "2018-06-17T18:01:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. We’re not a theocracy, and thank goodness for that. Feel free to encourage that if you think it’s useful. I’ve said all I care to on the subject, at least in this thread. Right, we are not a theocracy, which is why criticism should be levied at the Attorney General of the United States of America using a bible quote to justify his actions, rather than at posters on a message board who point out the bible isn’t meant to be used that way. The ones who are encouraging the theocracy are the ones who are using it to justify their hate. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/125 "2018-06-17T18:13:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Funny, I thought any mention of Christian references are to be banned. Ex. removing copies of the Ten Commandments. Outlawing school prayer. The funny thing is really seeing that you did not read the thread then. It was Sessions who pulled the religion card and he got many to point out how off base he was, as shown in post #9. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/126 "2018-06-17T18:35:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Now, you: do you think that separating two-year-olds from their parents and putting them in cages in abandoned Walmarts is a morally defensible response to illegal immigration? Would you support this response to DUIs, to tax cheats, to other crimes? That’s the second time you’ve mentioned children in cages. Just in case you didn’t know, that [one picture was not of a child being detained](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/toddler-cage-photo/), and the [other pictures were from 2014](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/127 "2018-06-17T18:48:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s the second time you’ve mentioned children in cages. Just in case you didn’t know, that [one picture was not of a child being detained](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/toddler-cage-photo/), and the [other pictures were from 2014](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/). My apologies for the error, and thanks for the correction. The confinement these children face, however, is real, even if their confinement does not consist of metal bars; everything else in my post, as far as I know, is accurate, and my question remains. Is separating toddlers from their parents in a way that will likely cause permanent psychological damage, housing these children in repurposed Walmarts and desert tent prisons, a morally defensible response to illegal immigration? Is it a morally defensible way to pressure political opponents into capitulation? Is it a morally defensible way to terrorize parents into following the law? I think the answer to all three questions is a “What the fuck? NO!” Happy fucking Father’s Day, a day when my government tears children away from their fathers. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/128 "2018-06-17T18:48:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s the second time you’ve mentioned children in cages. Just in case you didn’t know, that [one picture was not of a child being detained](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/toddler-cage-photo/), and the [other pictures were from 2014](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/). Do you think that because some pictures out there are not of the children being currently detained, that that means that the children are not being kept in cages? [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/06/does-the-u-s-keep-immigrant-children-in-cages/?noredirect=on&utm\_term=.a46eee8975d5](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/06/does-the-u-s-keep-immigrant-children-in-cages/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a46eee8975d5) > [@](#): > > The lesson here is that, although some of Trump’s critics used outdated photographs from 2014 to attack his immigration policies, the practice of holding children in chain-link fence enclosures continues. Merkley may not have pictures to back up his claim, but the Trump administration says it uses “barriers,” and other pictures of the same McAllen facility bear out much — but not all — of what the senator claimed. > > “This is an enormous warehouse with chain-link fencing,” said Astrid Dominguez, director of the Border Rights Center at the ACLU of Texas. “I’ve been there when the numbers are high, and I’ve been there when the numbers are low, and I’ve seen kids and parents in there.” It is sometimes the case that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but not necessarily when the evidence is being intentionally prevented from getting out. > [@](#): > > We reached out to Merkley’s office to verify his claims and were told the senator and his staff were not allowed to take pictures inside the McAllen facility. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/129 "2018-06-17T18:57:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s the second time you’ve mentioned children in cages. Just in case you didn’t know, that [one picture was not of a child being detained](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/toddler-cage-photo/), and the [other pictures were from 2014](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/). Yeah, there is no need to go for out of date images, the real ones are not with cages, but it is practically a jail anyhow. At least there was entertainment then and now, I guess… > **[Reporters Tour Texas Facility Where Migrant Children Are Detained](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/06/reporter-migrant-children-incarcerated-in-texas-facility.html)** > > Nearly 1,500 undocumented boys are being housed in a former Walmart, which is overcrowded and features a creepy Trump mural. > [@jacobsoboroff](#): > > I have been inside a federal prison and county jails. > > This place is called a shelter but these kids are incarcerated. > > No cells and no cages, and they get to go to classes about American history and watch Moana, but they’re in custody. One has to wonder still what happened to kids like ones being taken away from breast feeding mothers. > [@Chris Hayes](#): > > But that’s not the whole reason population, @jacobsoboroff noted. Now we need to have reporters be given access to ORR facilities for those under 10. At least UAC facilities have experience and some training. But there are no one-year-old unaccompanied minors! > > **Which means ORR has not, until now, been running a massive childcare system for tender age children. But now, babies and toddlers are being taken from their parents and put…where? Who is caring for them and how? We need to see inside those facilities. Now.** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/130 "2018-06-17T19:24:15Z")
Even if the conditions were the best we could manage, and the caregivers the most human and intelligent people we have…it would still be traumatic and hurtful. Even Mother Theresa isn’t Mom. I think they’re panicking. The whole purpose is deterrence, to stop or at least stanch the flow from Central America, a flow that is likely to get worse as the situation gets worse, and the least bit of humane tolerance will only give hope to the desperate. And maybe there is no “good solution”. But there has to be a better one. ---
**Author:** ![betonbill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b782af/32.png) [@betonbill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betonbill)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/131 "2018-06-17T19:25:36Z")
This isn’t an R or D issue: It’s a basic moral issue. Everybody should be asking their congressional representatives one question: Are you for or against breaking up families? Against it they can stay; for it, they can apply for unemployment in their home state. Also, it would probably save the gov’t (you and me) a whole lot of money to house families together at one facility. Using these kids as a lever to get money to build THE WALL is outrageous. I truly believe that those for this have convinced themselves that these are really non-people. They don’t speak our language, they don’t look like us, they don’t truly feel things like we do. And so we (gov’t) can do whatever they want with them, because they really aren’t people like us ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/132 "2018-06-17T19:41:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sanctuary cities and catch-and-release. Impressive how you can read all that and blame Democrats because local law enforcement doesn’t want to do the fed’s job. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/133 "2018-06-17T20:04:37Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > I may be wrong, but as I recall, Republicans control both houses of Congress and the Presidency. If there really is a law causing problems, they could change it. You are indeed wrong. The Republicans control Congress, but the American Nazi Party has a lock on the Presidency. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/134 "2018-06-17T20:05:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > My apologies for the error, and thanks for the correction. The confinement these children face, however, is real, even if their confinement does not consist of metal bars; everything else in my post, as far as I know, is accurate, and my question remains. > > Is separating toddlers from their parents in a way that will likely cause permanent psychological damage, housing these children in repurposed Walmarts and desert tent prisons, a morally defensible response to illegal immigration? Is it a morally defensible way to pressure political opponents into capitulation? Is it a morally defensible way to terrorize parents into following the law? > > I think the answer to all three questions is a “What the fuck? NO!” > > Happy fucking Father’s Day, a day when my government tears children away from their fathers. He wasn’t allowed to take pictures, but Senator Merkley reported that he saw hundreds of children in chain-link enclosures that I think can reasonably be described as “cages”. > **[Analysis | Jeff Merkley’s claims about immigrant children in ‘cages,’ access...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/06/does-the-u-s-keep-immigrant-children-in-cages/?utm_term=.16e0875bebb4)** > > Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.) said hundreds of immigrant children are locked up in cages in Texas. We investigated. EDIT: Ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/135 "2018-06-17T20:08:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you think that because some pictures out there are not of the children being currently detained, that that means that the children are not being kept in cages? > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/06/does-the-u-s-keep-immigrant-children-in-cages/?noredirect=on&utm\_term=.a46eee8975d5](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/06/does-the-u-s-keep-immigrant-children-in-cages/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a46eee8975d5) > It is sometimes the case that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but not necessarily when the evidence is being intentionally prevented from getting out. It’s not a cage, and your article doesn’t say it is. Please don’t make me regret being on the same side of this issue as you are. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/136 "2018-06-17T20:30:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. We’re not a theocracy, and thank goodness for that. Feel free to encourage that if you think it’s useful. I’ve said all I care to on the subject, at least in this thread. We’re not a theocracy. We just have a substantial number of people, including the white house and major figures on the christian right, reaching to the bible to try to explain why this is somehow okay. And if a person’s read of the bible is “yeah, Jesus would be fine with this”, then they’re probably either lying to you to make a political point, or Andrea Yates 2.0. Asking the people who try to excuse their fucking _hideous_ political views with their holy book to actually _read_ their holy book is not unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/137 "2018-06-17T20:33:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not a cage, and your article doesn’t say it is. Please don’t make me regret being on the same side of this issue as you are. [AP says they’re in cages.](https://www.apnews.com/9794de32d39d4c6f89fbefaea3780769?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP_Politics& __twitter_impression=true&__ twitter_impression=true) > [@](#): > > McALLEN, Texas (AP) — Hundreds of children are waiting away from their parents inside a Border Patrol holding facility in South Texas, with groups of 20 or more children to a single cage. There are bottles of water, bags of chips, and large foil sheets intended to serve as blankets. > > The U.S. Border Patrol on Sunday allowed reporters to briefly visit the facility where the agency is holding children and adults after arresting them at the border. > > Nearly 2,000 children have been taken from their parents since the Trump administration announced its “zero tolerance” policy against people entering the U.S. without legal permission. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/138 "2018-06-17T20:46:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems to me the logical conclusion to your critique of these policies is that the United States may not prohibit immigration of families with children, if they arrive in a group that includes the children and the family is desperately trying to make a better life for their family. > > Is that your position? > > If it’s not, can you explain what measures you believe the United States can take that would be morally acceptable to meaningfully enforce that immigration law? WTF?! Yeah, no middle ground whatsoever between waving them in, and breaking up families. You’ve lost contact with logic as well as morality. It would certainly be a good deal less inhumane, in a “not as completely goddamn horrible, though still pretty nasty” way, to lock up 4-5 families in a cage, where the kids aren’t denied the presence of their parents and the emotional succor that provides them, than to take away the kids and lock 20 of them up in a cage. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/139 "2018-06-17T20:50:14Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I’m not saying they tell them to join MS-13 but yes, many can just pick up street kids and take them north. > > Remember we are talking about many kids who are already orphans. Not from intact families. > > Again, this is the 3rd world we are talking about. A world where little kids spend their day out begging or working for pennies. Show me one single reliable nonpartisan source that indicates that this is happening in significant numbers. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/140 "2018-06-17T21:01:07Z")
[This is about the kids who arrived unaccompanied](https://www.npr.org/2018/06/16/620451012/dhs-nearly-2-000-children-separated-from-adults-at-border-in-six-weeks?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20180616), rather than the ones who’ve been ripped away from their parents, but still it’s the Gestapo mind at work: > [@](#): > > Another new policy will make it even more difficult to reunite children with their families. The Trump administration is now fingerprinting family members wishing to take in the unaccompanied children, and it wants to share other information it has about the children’s families with the Department of Homeland Security. As the article indicates, the idea here is to scare relatives already here illegally from coming forward to claim the kids, or catch them and deport them when they do come forward. Screw the kids, the important thing is to deport wetbacks, even if it means keeping kids incarcerated. When the Dems regain control of things, we’re gonna need the equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. May everyone associated with these policies die of old age in prison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=8)