# Separating immigrants from their children is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206 "2018-06-16T16:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/161 "2018-06-18T01:03:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not supportive of this policy, and believe it to be lacking compassion and cruel. > > But I don’t believe it qualifies as “inhumane.” It’s the hyperbole I’m attacking here. “inhumane: without compassion for misery or suffering; cruel.” At least, that’s the definition that pops up in Google. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/162 "2018-06-18T01:03:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not supportive of this policy, and believe it to be lacking compassion and cruel. > > But I don’t believe it qualifies as “inhumane.” It’s the hyperbole I’m attacking here. I’m OK with “lacking compassion and cruel.” I didn’t realize we were arguing over adjectives. Sounds like we largely agree. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/163 "2018-06-18T01:14:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not supportive of this policy, and believe it to be lacking compassion and cruel. > > But I don’t believe it qualifies as “inhumane.” It’s the hyperbole I’m attacking here. So you’re saying it’s without compassion for misery or suffering, or cruel, but not inhumane. It’s the [definition of inhumane](https://www.google.com/search?q=inhumane&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-ab), IN YOUR WORDS, but not inhumane. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/164 "2018-06-18T01:27:23Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m OK with “lacking compassion and cruel.” I didn’t realize we were arguing over adjectives. Sounds like we largely agree. I think we’re more in agreement than not . . . but I wish it were more common to be able to say, “I think this is a poor argument against X,” without people hearing, “I favor X.” This is cruel, and lacks compassion, and uses immigrants as pawns in a political battle, all of which I dislike. But it’s really not “inhumane.” There is no starvation, no torture, no beatings. Other criminals are separated from their children, and there is no wide-spread consensus that this is an inhumane practice. I believe that when battle lines are drawn, it somehow becomes difficult to say, “I disagree with such-and-so policy.” Instead, the policy must be called detestable, inhumane, likened to the worst abuses of totalitarian governments. How is that remotely useful? I think this policy is cruel, uncompassionate, and unwise, in part because what drives it is political point-scoring as opposed to genuine legitimate national concerns. Why can’t THAT be the critique? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/165 "2018-06-18T01:28:24Z")
Nobody has really answered the question. Suppose I am driving with my daughter in the car. I am not drunk or under the influence of drugs, but I am tired and drive over the center line. I am pulled over and arrested. Bail is set, but I am too poor to post it. We have no other family. Does my daughter go to the county jail with me? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/166 "2018-06-18T01:36:14Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Nobody has really answered the question. Suppose I am driving with my daughter in the car. I am not drunk or under the influence of drugs, but I am tired and drive over the center line. > > I am pulled over and arrested. Bail is set, but I am too poor to post it. We have no other family. > > Does my daughter go to the county jail with me? Aren’t you an attorney? Why are you asking us this question? Answer it yourself–and while you’re at it, explain why: 1. There aren’t camps set up across the nation to house the children of DUI offenders; and 2. Why this change in policy is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/167 "2018-06-18T01:37:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s really not “inhumane.” This is ridiculous. You’re not even nitpicking the meaning of adjectives, you’re nitpicking some connotation of adjectives that’s not necessarily there. How much effort are you spending on this bizarre nitpickery, compared to how much you’re spending trying to stop this cruel, lacking-compassion, unwise policy? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/168 "2018-06-18T01:41:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is ridiculous. You’re not even nitpicking the meaning of adjectives, you’re nitpicking some connotation of adjectives that’s not necessarily there. How much effort are you spending on this bizarre nitpickery, compared to how much you’re spending trying to stop this cruel, lacking-compassion, unwise policy? Excluded middle. I have time to spend on both goals. How about you? Why don’t you simply concede my point so you can devote your every waking moment to ending this policy? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/169 "2018-06-18T01:47:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excluded middle. I have time to spend on both goals. > > How about you? Why don’t you simply concede my point so you can devote your every waking moment to ending this policy? Goddamn, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/170 "2018-06-18T01:50:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Goddamn, dude. This is not a rebuttal that is remarkable for its cogency. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/171 "2018-06-18T01:53:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excluded middle. I have time to spend on both goals. …if you have so much time available to you, do you have the time to answer the question I put to you earlier, or the questions that Eva put to you? > [@](#): > > How about you? Why don’t you simply concede my point so you can devote your every waking moment to ending this policy? Trying to win a debate by begging “your opponent” to concede is a new one on me. It shows you don’t have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/172 "2018-06-18T01:59:07Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Nobody has really answered the question. Suppose I am driving with my daughter in the car. I am not drunk or under the influence of drugs, but I am tired and drive over the center line. > > I am pulled over and arrested. Bail is set, but I am too poor to post it. We have no other family. > > Does my daughter go to the county jail with me? Was your daughter also arrested for doing exactly the same thing that you were doing? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/173 "2018-06-18T02:10:48Z")
> [@](#): > > AC: There is no one process. Judging from the mothers and fathers I’ve spoken to and those my staff has spoken to, there are several different processes. Sometimes they will tell the parent, “We’re taking your child away.” And when the parent asks, “When will we get them back?” they say, “We can’t tell you that.” Sometimes the officers will say, “because you’re going to be prosecuted” or “because you’re not welcome in this country,” or “because we’re separating them,” without giving them a clear justification. In other cases, we see no communication that the parent knows that their child is to be taken away. Instead, the officers say, “I’m going to take your child to get bathed.” That’s one we see again and again. “Your child needs to come with me for a bath.” The child goes off, and in a half an hour, twenty minutes, the parent inquires, “Where is my five-year-old?” “Where’s my seven-year-old?” “This is a long bath.” And they say, “You won’t be seeing your child again.” Sometimes mothers—I was talking to one mother, and she said, “Don’t take my child away,” and the child started screaming and vomiting and crying hysterically, and she asked the officers, “Can I at least have five minutes to console her?” They said no. In another case, the father said, “Can I comfort my child? Can I hold him for a few minutes?” The officer said, “You must let them go, and if you don’t let them go, I will write you up for an altercation, which will mean that you are the one that had the additional charges charged against you.” So, threats. So the father just let the child go. So it’s a lot of variations. But sometimes deceit and sometimes direct, just “I’m taking your child away.” Parents are not getting any information on what their rights are to communicate to get their child before they are deported, what reunification may look like > **[What's Really Happening When Asylum-Seeking Families Are Separated?](https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/)** > > An expert on helping parents navigate the asylum process describes what she's seeing on the ground. …Bricker: do you think that it would be fair to characterize the refusal to let a father comfort his child for five minutes as “inhumane?” How about taking a child away to get bathed and then telling the mum “you won’t see the child again?” Would you consider that action “inhumane?” Or how about telling the parent “we are taking your child away” and when they ask when will they see them again the response is “I don’t know?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/174 "2018-06-18T02:19:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if you have so much time available to you, do you have the time to answer the question I put to you earlier, or the questions that Eva put to you? > > Trying to win a debate by begging “your opponent” to concede is a new one on me. It shows you don’t have a point. I was certainly not begging, and my request was a rhetorical device intended to high the lack of validity associated with the comment “How much effort are you spending on this bizarre nitpickery, compared to how much you’re spending trying to stop this cruel, lacking-compassion, unwise policy?” Your use of “begging,” is unjustified. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/175 "2018-06-18T02:21:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I was certainly not begging, and my request was a rhetorical device intended to high the lack of validity associated with the comment “How much effort are you spending on this bizarre nitpickery, compared to how much you’re spending trying to stop this cruel, lacking-compassion, unwise policy?” …Left Hand of Dorkness isn’t the one who has redefined “inhumane.” The only person spending time on bizarre nitpickery in this thread is you. > [@](#): > > Your use of “begging,” is unjustified. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/176 "2018-06-18T02:22:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > [What's Really Happening When Asylum-Seeking Families Are Separated? – Texas Monthly](https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/whats-really-happening-asylum-seeking-families-separated/) > > …Bricker: do you think that it would be fair to characterize the refusal to let a father comfort his child for five minutes as “inhumane?” Yes. > [@](#): > > How about taking a child away to get bathed and then telling the mum “you won’t see the child again?” Would you consider that action “inhumane?” Yes. > [@](#): > > Or how about telling the parent “we are taking your child away” and when they ask when will they see them again the response is “I don’t know?” Yes. ETA: Perhaps. The method by which this response is delivered would matter a great deal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/177 "2018-06-18T02:26:59Z")
Now, please cite the policy that requires these things be done. I’m against it. It’s an inhumane policy. Which specific policy is it, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/178 "2018-06-18T02:35:58Z")
Here is an analogy: POSTER 1: It’s outrageous that Baltimore police have a policy that lets them plant drugs on innocent people. POSTER 2: What? They do? That can’t be true. POSTER 1: Oh, it is. [Cite.](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-40661680/did-baltimore-police-officer-plant-drugs) Do you see the problem that POSTER 1 is missing? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/179 "2018-06-18T02:45:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, please cite the policy that requires these things be done. I’m against it. It’s an inhumane policy. > > Which specific policy is it, exactly? …chaos Bricker. Fucking chaos. > [@Bill Kristol](#): > > Trump: The Democrats made us do it. > Stephen Miller: It’s our policy to do it. > Sec. Nielsen: We’re not doing it. > I’ve talked before about chaos theory, and how it applies to complex systems. In a well structured, managed system chaos is reduced. If a well managed system you put procedures in place before you implement a policy. You roll-it-out in a managed fashion. Everybody works to the same play-book. Things become predictably predictable. But this isn’t how the Trump administration works. The Trump administration is defined by chaos. The i’s are not dotted, the t’s are not crossed. And this is where we find ourselves now: with the President and Miller claiming a policy exists and with Sec Nielson denying that a policy exists, and everybody else trying to figure out what-the-fuck is going on. I’m not going to play your game. Because your game is _hurting people_. You are asking me to cite a policy when it should be crystal fucking clear that this administration can’t even get their story straight on whether or not there is a policy. The reality is that parents are being separated from their children at borders and that the people at the borders are “making things up” because there are no formal “procedures” in place. We don’t know where the girls are. We don’t know where the infants are. This is, by any measure, inhumane. And it is a direct result of directives from the Trump administration. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206/180 "2018-06-18T02:57:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is, by any measure, inhumane. And it is a direct result of directives from the Trump administration. The chaotic situation produces some results that can fairly be characterized as humane, then? Do you see any daylight between that claim and the claim that the policies are inhumane? In [Kentucky, in 2017,](https://nypost.com/2018/05/10/detective-offered-to-drive-rape-victim-home-but-demanded-sex-instead-cops/) a police detective is accused of turning his offer to drive a sexual assault victim home into a trip to a motel, where he raped her again, at least according to the indictment. That was inhumane treatment. But it was not (I hope you agree) the policy of the Hillview Police Department to rape sexual assault victims on the way home. [Here is a report about immigrant children released to human traffickers.](https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Majority%20&%20Minority%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Protecting%20Unaccompanied%20Alien%20Children%20from%20Trafficking%20and%20Other%20Abuses%202016-01-282.pdf) Was that also “directly attributable” to chaos and the President’s fault? Inasmuch as it happened during the Obama administration, I suspect not. > [@](#): > > Over a period of four months in 2014, however, HHS allegedly placed a > number of UACs in the hands of a ring of human traffickers who forced them to > work on egg farms in and around Marion, Ohio, leading to a federal criminal > indictment. According to the indictment, the minor victims were forced to work six > or seven days a week, twelve hours per day.2 The traffickers repeatedly threatened > the victims and their families with physical harm, and even death, if they did not > work or surrender their entire paychecks.3 The indictment alleges that the > defendants “used a combination of threats, humiliation, deprivation, financial > coercion, debt manipulation, and monitoring to create a climate of fear and > helplessness that would compel [the victims’] compliance.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separating-immigrants-from-their-children-is-child-abuse/816206.md?page=10)