# Separation of Church and State **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 26, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984 "2003-09-26T15:10:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![YTMezoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@YTMezoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YTMezoan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/1 "2003-09-26T15:10:30Z")
Hi - ``` What is the source for the concept of Separation of Church and State in US Law? Thanks. ``` ---
**Author:** ![refusal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@refusal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/refusal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/2 "2003-09-26T15:43:52Z")
The First Amendment. Maybe you’ve heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/3 "2003-09-26T15:44:17Z")
The first amendment: > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. ---
**Author:** ![refusal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@refusal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/refusal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/4 "2003-09-26T15:45:36Z")
Specifically: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” (Bill of Rights, Amendment 1) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/5 "2003-09-26T15:47:35Z")
Someone has a research paper due… The First Amendment reads in part “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” This mirrors provisions which existed at the time in various state constitutions. The phrase “separation of church and state” is drawn from Thomas Jefferson’s [letter](http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html) to the Danbury Baptists in which he states > [@](#): > > Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/6 "2003-09-26T15:49:14Z")
The actual phrase “separation of church and state” is not found anywhere in the Constitution. It was coined by Thomas Jefferson in a reply letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802. The actual wording was “wall of separation between Church and State.” ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/7 "2003-09-26T15:50:07Z")
The First Amendment begins: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” before going on to protect freedom of speech, assembly and petition. This opening portion of the amendment is known as “the establishment clause”. Traditionally, this has been interpreted by courts to mean that people have freedom of religion and, if they so desire, freedom from it besides. The phrase “separation between church and state” was first notably used by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, which had been lobbying to get him to declare a national day of fasting. He explained why he was declining to do so by observing that the framers of The Constitution had enacted The First Amendment, “thus building a wall of separation between church and state”. It is interesting to note that at the time Baptists had a reputation for being wary of government involvement in religion, and Jefferson begins his letter by observing that he shares their belief that religion is a private matter “between a man and his god”. It is probably also worth noting that Jefferson was a Deist and, in his own appraisal, not a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/8 "2003-09-26T15:50:28Z")
**Otto** , you beat me to it by two minutes! ---
**Author:** ![YTMezoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@YTMezoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YTMezoan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/9 "2003-09-26T15:56:54Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/10 "2003-09-26T15:57:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by slipster \* > \*\*Jefferson was a Deist and, in his own appraisal, not a Christian. \*\* Well… yes. No. Maybe. Who knows? TJ gave conflicting statements on his religious beliefs, and people have been arguing about it ever since. Suffice to say, no one can really nail down his actual religious beliefs and/or affiliations. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/11 "2003-09-26T16:00:26Z")
Two days ago, I sent a few friends a paragraph from _The Onion_ which announces “Church, State Joyfully Reunite After 230-Year Trial Separation.” One of the people I sent it to, a bible-thumper if there ever was one (but a nice guy that this atheist enjoys talking to), replied: > [@](#): > > Huh? I’m sure this was meant to be funny, right? However, this article reeks with errors. I happen to have done quite a bit of research on this topic. > > The biggest one - the so-called “separation” only occurred during the early 1960’s from a gross misinterpretation of the 1st Amendment by the Supreme Court - not 230 years. The Supreme Court decision was based on a letter from Thomas Jefferson - not on any law. Before I broach the subject with him again, can anyone shed light on what he’s talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/12 "2003-09-26T16:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CurtC \* > \*\*Before I broach the subject with him again, can anyone shed light on what he’s talking about? \*\* He’s evidently referring to the 1962 SCOTUS decision banning organized prayer in public schools. ---
**Author:** ![micco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@micco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/micco)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/13 "2003-09-26T16:22:32Z")
It should be pointed out that the First Amendment and other legal restraints do not actually enforce a separation of church and state. What they do is restrain the state, but they do not have any bearing on the activities of a church. You will ocassionally find this so-called separation used as an argument about why churches should not be involved in politics, sponsor political debates or endorse candidates, etc., but this is unfounded. The First Amendment requires that the state be uninvolved in the church, but it does not require any church to be uninvolved in the state. ---
**Author:** ![ElectroSunDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@ElectroSunDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectroSunDog)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/14 "2003-09-26T18:57:44Z")
They did it, basically, because they were tired of seeing the Catholic Church, which was basically running everything over in Europe, ruin everything by messing up the government’s priorities. How do you THINK things got so screwed-up during the Middle Ages? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/15 "2003-09-26T19:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > the Catholic Church, which was basically running everything over in Europe I think you’ll find that the Church of England was fairly active in one country…can’t recall the name off the top of my head… ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/16 "2003-09-26T20:00:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by micco \* > \*\*The First Amendment requires that the state be uninvolved in the church, but it does not require any church to be uninvolved in the state. \*\* Depends. Does the church want to keep it’s tax-exempt status? If so, it may want to limit it’s “involvement in the state” to somewhat less than it’s involvement in being a church for it’s members. There are lots of IRS rules & Tax Court decision involving just where the line is on this. The ‘separation of church and state’ enters into this because the government is, in effect, subsidizing churches by making them exempt from the taxes that the rest of us have to pay. Applies even more now with “faith-based” church programs accepting government money. Some churches are hesitating to participate in this, thinking that if you take government money, eventually the government is going to put requirements on you. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/203984/17 "2003-09-26T20:02:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElectroSunDog \* > \*\*They did it, basically, because they were tired of seeing the Catholic Church, which was basically running everything over in Europe, ruin everything by messing up the government’s priorities. How do you THINK things got so screwed-up during the Middle Ages? \*\* My, it’s so endearing to see someone as proud of his ignorance as are you. The particular government-run church in question was a very vehemently anti-Catholic group, specifically the Anglican Church.