# Separation of Church and State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712 "2007-05-11T16:26:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/1 "2007-05-11T16:26:57Z")
Oklahoma’s design for its quarter was objected to by “seculars.” Oklahoma had chosen the pioneer woman for the quarter, but she has a Bible tucked under her arm which was said to violate separation of church and state. If you look real hard you can see a thick book, the title is not apparent. So, Oklahoma had to come up with another design to placate the complainers. Is it always necessary to give-in on such trivial things. I find this something like the argument of how many Angels can stand or dance on the point of a pin. You can find the images of the quarter [http://aleroy.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=8](http://aleroy.com/albums/thumbnails.php?album=8) here and an explanation of the Angels argument [Religious Conflict Essay | Bartleby](http://www.bartleby.com/59/4/howmanyangel.html) here. Someone else’s opinion is [http://9rules.com/politics/notes/3424/](http://9rules.com/politics/notes/3424/) here. In my humble opinion I believe the seculars are hurting their cause not helping it. What is your take? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/2 "2007-05-11T16:33:29Z")
My first take on the situation is that I find it amusing that you seem to be using the word “seculars” as a denigrating term. 🙂 Second, you ask, “Is it always necessary to give-in on such trivial things?” My answer is yes, it is. Give theists an inch, and they’ll take a mile. You may think this is trivial- but then, you’re part of the religion which is represented by that bible, no matter how small it is. Honestly, is it so hard for theists to maintain their belief that they have to be reminded of it, constantly? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/3 "2007-05-11T16:35:11Z")
It amuses me greatly that you felt you had to link to an explanation of your reference to arguments on how many angels can dance on a pin. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/4 "2007-05-11T16:40:31Z")
Do you have any evidence that you have presented any facts, here. (Your last link does not work.) The stories I have read said that the image chosen was that of a well-known 17 foot tall statue (where the book held is clearly a bible and is known to be a bible by everyone who has seen the statue or any photo of it). Further, the stories I have found, so far, do not indicate that there was any protest against the bible. They indicate that the design presented (by an unnamed artist) had omitted the bible and that a bunch of people protested the omission. So, your claim that the “book” was not clearly a bible is in error and, barring better evidence actually presented, you have changed who took the actions and who did the protesting to make a point that is in error. If you have actual evidence that anyone protested the inclusion of the bible, I would like to see it, otherwise, you seem to be posting errors simply to stir up controversy. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/5 "2007-05-11T16:45:41Z")
What percent of “seculars” do you suppose object to the original design? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/6 "2007-05-11T16:47:31Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] My first take on the situation is that I find it amusing that you seem to be using the word “seculars” as a denigrating term. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I was unaware that I was a different species from **lekatt**. I’m not sure how I feel about it. As best I can tell, the OP is inaccurate and somewhat out of date. The Bible was removed by the U.S. Mint, not “somebody.” I see nothing about any protest or complaints by “seculars.” In fact, it seems “non-seculars” are complaining about the removal. > **[Oklahoma Chooses Not to Use Controversial Bible-Less Coins](https://www.christianpost.com/article/20070501/27171_Oklahoma_Chooses_Not_to_Use_Controversial_Bible-Less_Coins.htm)** > > The proposed designs for the Oklahoma state quarter caused a bit of a stir after U S mint designers removed the Bible from them As for the rationale behind the decision, it’s like this - and you’ll note that “the seculars” didn’t make it up, the U.S. Mint did. > [@](#): > > According to the mint guidelines, the manufacturer cannot place “inappropriate” designs onto the backside of its currency. These include logos or depictions of things whose membership is not universal such as education, sports, commercial, and religious. That’s pretty straightforward. And when it came down to a vote, Oklahoma went with a different design anyway. I’m more annoyed by “In God We Trust,” personally. I’m also curious to know what **lekatt** thinks “the seculars” should be doing to help their cause. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/7 "2007-05-11T16:47:51Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] If you look real hard you can see a thick book, the title is not apparent. [/QUOTE] It’s a famous statue, at least in Oklahoma. Everyone knows the book is a Bible. (I grew up in Oklahoma. I’ve been to Ponca City and seen the statue in person. I’ve even been to [Woolaroc](http://www.woolaroc.com/) and seen all the prototype statues that were submitted to the commission that picked this statue.) The rules make good sense. The coinage is for everyone in America. Religious symbols are too divisive. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/8 "2007-05-11T16:49:39Z")
And, apperently, by an overwhelming vote, the citizens of Oklahoma rejected all of the statue designs, [Oklahoma Chooses Not to Use Controversial Bible-Less Coins](http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070501/27171_Oklahoma_Chooses_Not_to_Use_Controversial_Bible-Less_Coins.htm), so the point is moot. The reason the bible was removed (without anyone protesting its presence) was because mint guidelines say > [@](#): > > the manufacturer cannot place “inappropriate” designs onto the backside of its currency. These include logos or depictions of things whose membership is not universal such as education, sports, commercial, and religious. So, the mint removed the bible because the rules, (established over a decade ago) prohibit the use of any exclusionary images. This means that Massachusetts could not include an image of the Harvard logo, New York could not use the logo for the New York Yankees, Washington could not use the logos of Microsoft or Boeing, and Oklahoma could not use a bible, for example. Tempest in a teapot with a false claim in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/9 "2007-05-11T16:53:48Z")
Of course, every Oklahoma quarter will continue to bear the legend “In God We Trust” on its obverse . . . won’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/10 "2007-05-11T16:54:35Z")
If she was carrying “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins, any “religionists” who protested that would also be hurting their cause, right? Is it always necessary to give-in on such trivial things? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/11 "2007-05-11T16:55:48Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] And, apperently, by an overwhelming vote, the citizens of Oklahoma rejected all of the statue designs, [Oklahoma Chooses Not to Use Controversial Bible-Less Coins](http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070501/27171_Oklahoma_Chooses_Not_to_Use_Controversial_Bible-Less_Coins.htm), so the point is moot. The reason the bible was removed (without anyone protesting its presence) was because mint guidelines saySo, the mint removed the bible because the rules, (established over a decade ago) prohibit the use of any exclusionary images. This means that Massachusetts could not include an image of the Harvard logo, New York could not use the logo for the New York Yankees, Washington could not use the logos of Microsoft or Boeing, and Oklahoma could not use a bible, for example. Tempest in a teapot with a false claim in the OP. [/QUOTE] But at least we expanded our vocabularies. “Seculars”… ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/12 "2007-05-11T16:57:17Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Tempest in a teapot with a false claim in the OP. [/QUOTE] Now honestly, does this surprise you in the least? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/13 "2007-05-11T17:05:27Z")
The funny thing is that the vast majority of secularists are theists. Also, most theists are secularists. The alternative is a theocracy or a King chosen by God. Damn you, Enlightenment! You always ruin everything! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/14 "2007-05-11T17:06:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Of course, every Oklahoma quarter will continue to bear the legend “In God We Trust” on its obverse . . . won’t it? [/QUOTE] Yeah. However, the reverse continues to display the real motto of the U.S., _E pluribus Unum_, that **lekatt** probably wants to see changed to _Ad Victor Spolia_ (as long as his group is in the majority). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/15 "2007-05-11T17:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] This means that Massachusetts could not include an image of the Harvard logo, New York could not use the logo for the New York Yankees, Washington could not use the logos of Microsoft or Boeing, and Oklahoma could not use a bible, for example. [/QUOTE] Central planning is so much fun to laugh at. Why did they do states at all? Hell, how can they even put the names of their states on the coins? Not everyone lives in Massachusetts. As to the Bible thing itself, I mean Jesus, c’mon. It’s a simple matter of history that in 1907, it was a popular book. It all smacks of purging racist references from old cartoons, or making Thanksgiving into a big affair to commemorate white people who, through their goodness and charity, shared their bounty with the savages. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/16 "2007-05-11T17:22:58Z")
Personally I’m disappointed that they didn’t put [The Golden Driller](http://www.tulsahomesguide.com/img/tulsa-golden-driller.jpg) on the Oklahoma quarter. That would have rocked! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/17 "2007-05-11T17:25:35Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Yeah. However, the reverse continues to display the real motto of the U.S., _E pluribus Unum_, that **lekatt** probably wants to see changed to _Ad Victor Spolia_ (as long as his group is in the majority). [/QUOTE] The motto of the US is currently “In God We Trust” From 36 US Code 302 " ‘In God we trust’ is the national motto." ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/18 "2007-05-11T17:26:42Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] My first take on the situation is that I find it amusing that you seem to be using the word “seculars” as a denigrating term. 🙂 Second, you ask, “Is it always necessary to give-in on such trivial things?” My answer is yes, it is. Give theists an inch, and they’ll take a mile. You may think this is trivial- but then, you’re part of the religion which is represented by that bible, no matter how small it is. Honestly, is it so hard for theists to maintain their belief that they have to be reminded of it, constantly? [/QUOTE] Sorry, I am not religious, nor do I follow the Bible. However, I would have liked the Pioneer Woman on the quarter. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/19 "2007-05-11T17:27:43Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] However, I would have liked the Pioneer Woman on the quarter. [/QUOTE] How nice for you. Now how about the fact that everything you said in the OP was wrong? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712/20 "2007-05-11T17:27:51Z")
If it helps, the rose is the national flower, and “The Stars and Stripes Forever” is the national march. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/separation-of-church-and-state/403712.md?page=2)