# Seperation of church and state **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071 "2003-07-17T05:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![nodope4us](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nodope4us](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nodope4us)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/81 "2003-07-20T07:02:45Z")
well I didnt mean in the pledge, I was going to use it for a nickname for my girlfriend, still have your blessing? How about One nation, under the heavens?" It doesn’t have religious meaning, it refers to the shy. But some still think of it as religous, oh another one that wouldn’t work. “One nation, under the protection of homeland security.” I dont think that would enspire or enstill pride in our country much. ---
**Author:** ![Wandering\_Agnostic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cc9497/32.png) [@Wandering\_Agnostic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wandering_Agnostic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/82 "2003-07-20T07:04:43Z")
Go for it. If you want to call your girlfriend The Mother Goddess, more power to you. And Anything under Homeland Security is merely a morass or a quagmire of red tape and more government spending. What a waste of a cabinet position. ---
**Author:** ![nodope4us](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nodope4us](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nodope4us)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/83 "2003-07-20T07:11:18Z")
Oh yeah, I was going to address the other part of your message. While “Allah,” “God” and "Yahweh"could be considered synonymous, they still “represent” different “Figures?” Am I correct? ---
**Author:** ![nodope4us](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nodope4us](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nodope4us)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/84 "2003-07-20T07:15:45Z")
Yea well, I don’t see why starting a completely different department the does the job of many others, while giving more money to all those others would be more cost effective. Well anywho, this is getting way off topic, so wandering, do you believe in the seperation of the church and state(I will go out on a limb and say yes) and do you think they abuse this or no? What things would people like to see accountable under this and which ones are falsely accountable? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/85 "2003-07-20T07:30:41Z")
Christians who promulgate state religious involvement just mystify me. I don’t get it. Forget for a moment all the political arguments, which are quite valid, and sufficient by themselves, consider the religious implications. Do you want the Supreme Court and the President to make the judgment that your child should repeat their choice of a prayer in school? Christ said not to pray in public at all! Do you want the interpretation of doctrine in your faith to be subject to a vote by the general assembly, or the Congress? Are you worshipping God, or George Bush? Why would you want the words “In God we trust” to be put on the money? That is the one and only thing in the entire world that the Lord said was not His! On the money? Are you totally nuts? Give unto George, what is George’s and unto the Lord what is the Lord’s. Did your public school teach mathematics? Can you still factor a fifth order polynomial? Can you factor 13455? Did your school teach History? Who were the Olmecs? Where did the Celts come from originally? Did your school teach Chemistry? Can you balance an oxidation/reduction reaction? Did your school teach English? Can you diagram a sentence? What is the rhyming pattern of an Elizabethan Sonnet? Did your school . . . well, you get the idea. Are these the people you want to be responsible the spiritual education of your children? Have you no sense of duty to your children, and your Lord? How can you foist this sacred duty off to yet another welfare program run by Government Workers? Do you think they will care? And the most hideous thing of all, for me, as a Christian, is to notice that the heathens of the world are not subject to this particular spiritual sloth. They don’t want Wiccan prayer in school, or even Jewish religious lessons in school. Why? Because, schoolteachers lack the authority to give such lessons. Only American Protestant Christians want to let George do it when it comes to the spiritual well being of their children. The Catholics won’t surrender that, and would rather have the church do all the educating of children. Let us weep, brothers, for the uncaring, and those they wish to abandon to Caesar. And let us keep our faith holy, and out of the hands of secular power mongers. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/86 "2003-07-20T07:32:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nodope4us \* > \*\*Oh yeah, I was going to address the other part of your message. While “Allah,” “God” and "Yahweh"could be considered synonymous, they still “represent” different “Figures?” Am I correct? \*\* No, just different languages. “Allah” just means "God in Arabic. Arab Christians call God Allah. Yahweh is the Jewish name for God. Islam worships the same God of Abraham as Jews and Christians. I think “Mother Goddess” would be a better example of something that would really irritate people, or how about simply "One nation under the god **s**? ---
**Author:** ![nodope4us](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nodope4us](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nodope4us)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/87 "2003-07-20T07:39:37Z")
Well gods is good but your still prefering religion over none. How about “One nation under god, the heavens or just the clouds if you have no religion” ok that was a bad one. “One nation under the helpless sons-o-bitches in the government?” ---
**Author:** ![nodope4us](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nodope4us](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nodope4us)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/88 "2003-07-20T07:45:19Z")
Chuch should spread the word, schools should teach how to spell them? Correct? ---
**Author:** ![nodope4us](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nodope4us](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nodope4us)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/89 "2003-07-20T07:46:26Z")
church, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/90 "2003-07-20T14:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > _nodope4us:_ > Bright, how do you find it sacrilegious? In the branch of Hinduism I follow, God is above material trivialities such as money. I don’t like to see God being conflated with money in this manner. YMMV and IMO, of course. But, as you can see, having “In God We Trust” on the money is _not_ religiously neutral. It is an endorsement of a viewpoint that it is acceptable to combine God with money. Separation of church and state serves to protect the religious as well as the non-religious. > [@](#): > > _ronbo_: > Since we do not yet know the Grand Unified Theory, we do not know if it will tell us about the cause of the Big Bang, how our universe was created. I will accept the proposition that something unexpected could fall out of GUT, but since GUT is concerned with the unification of the electro-weak, strong, and gravitational theories, your use of it in this context is bizzarre, and makes me think you actually do not understand what GUT is. > [@](#): > > _ronbo_: > We exist. Are you saying the Big Bang happened without a cause? For no reason? That sounds supernatural to me. I believe that physical, natural laws existed “before” the Big Bang and caused the Big Bang and that someday we might be able to understand them. But I also know that we are now in the realm of speculation and hey, isn’t that actually what Religion is? Well, you’re free to believe anything you want to, but unless you can cough up evidence that physical laws exist outside the universe, then your theory is about as useful as creation science. There is plenty of evidence that there is no “before” the Big Bang. What is your evidence that there is a “before”? As for what caused the Big Bang, I’ll happily say that God did. But I won’t disingenously pretend that I’m not talking about religion when I do. It seems to me that you are taking anything that exists outside the bounds of science (or which science doesn’t have a mechanism for) and labelling it “God,” and then claiming that this is scientific. If something is outside the bounds of science, then it isn’t scientific. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/91 "2003-07-21T05:17:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nodope4us \* > \*\*Well seeing as the pledge has been banned from some schools for the term “God” and from what I have heard noone is proposing to have it returned to its religously neutral form. Like you said though, it sounds different, I grew up with the “God” in it. The only reason I think that it should stay on money IS just tradition, I don’t think I would be sad if it happened to be removed, but why change something that I think not many people pay much attention to. It isn’t important enough for people to get offending over keeping it or abolishing it, but those people are out there. \*\* 1. The pledge is not “banned”, kids don’t get sent to the office for saying it with the “under God”. The court just decided that that reading could not be led; similar to the ruling on prayer in school. And IIRC, that ruling was stayed by the 9th Circuit shortly after they made it. 2. If not that many people pay attention to God on the money, then why can’t we get rid of it? No one will notice, right? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/92 "2003-07-21T06:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nodope4us \* > well I didnt mean in the pledge, I was going to use it for a nickname for my girlfriend, still have your blessing? How about One nation, under the heavens?" It doesn’t have religious meaning, it refers to the shy. But some still think of it as religous, oh another one that wouldn’t work. “One nation, under the protection of homeland security.” I dont think that would enspire or enstill pride in our country much. Putting aside for the moment other quibbles with the PoA: > [@](#): > > I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Unites States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That do it for you?🙂 > [@](#): > > BrightNShiny said: > I will accept the proposition that something unexpected could fall out of GUT, but since GUT is concerned with the unification of the electro-weak, strong, and gravitational theories, your use of it in this context is bizzarre, and makes me think you actually do not understand what GUT is. It’s funny that you point this out, because I was just going to ask **ronbo** if s/he understood what position s/he was advancing. Sometimes in a debate someone will tossed out Capitalized Words in the hope that they make their opponent think “Ooh, this guy has heard of Capitalized Words I have not; he _must_ be right.” ---
**Author:** ![ronbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@ronbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ronbo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/93 "2003-07-22T00:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Original quote by BrightNShiny_\*\* > I will accept the proposition that something unexpected could fall out of GUT, but since GUT is concerned with the unification of the electro-weak, strong, and gravitational theories, your use of it in this context is bizzarre, and makes me think you actually do not understand what GUT is.\*\* > > - Original quote by iampunha\* \*\* > It’s funny that you point this out, because I was just going to ask ronbo if s/he understood what position s/he was advancing. Sometimes in a debate someone will tossed out Capitalized Words in the hope that they make their opponent think “Ooh, this guy has heard of Capitalized Words I have not; he _must_ be right.”\*\* I know EXACTLY how you both feel. It is SOOOOOO hard to have a decent conversation with people that don’t know what they are talking about. Oh, for the Record, by Dr. Chaim H. Tejman of [grandunified theory.org](http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/equation1.htm) states: **“The universe was created by a single entity of energetic matter, which by its spinning and swirling motion formed two swirls (loops) that together comprised a wave.”** I am certain that he is not **intending** to imply a Supernatural Being, Intelligent design or even monotheism created the universe. ---
**Author:** ![ronbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@ronbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ronbo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/94 "2003-07-22T00:56:16Z")
Wait a minute… God…Gott (German) Gott…GUT God…GUT That cannot be a coincidence!!! We must change the coins to: **In GUT we Trust** ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/95 "2003-07-22T00:58:36Z")
An “entity” can be defined as anything having a discrete existence, it doesn’t necessarily connote sentience, although that is often implied in common useage. One problem with your overall argument, though, **ronbo** , The “entity” referred to in Tejman’s description _no longer exists_. It therefore has no present tense meaning and it is sensless to aver that we “trust” in it or that we are “under” it. Surely you don’t think the word “God” can rationally be applied to as a swirl of energetic matter which no longer exists? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/96 "2003-07-22T01:14:36Z")
From ronbo’s site, here’s Dr. Chaim’s biography: > [@](#): > > Dr. Tejman received his doctorate in medicine at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in 1961. At the same time, he audited classes in physics and philosophy. He also studied musical composition under the tutelage of the composer Nadel. > > Throughout his entire life, he has continued to work in the field of medicine research, primarily tumours. In his spare time, he has delved into theoretical physics. His dream is to continue researching cancer, as wave theory opens the door to the natural behaviour of all the body’s processes. Well, of course, if one wants to learn about physics, one should look to the crackpot theories of a medical doctor who has audited some physics classes. ---
**Author:** ![ronbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@ronbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ronbo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/97 "2003-07-22T02:39:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*Surely you don’t think the word “God” can rationally be applied to as a swirl of energetic matter which no longer exists? \*\* Did it cease to exist or did it become the Universe? Maybe a part of that force or energy that did not become the universe still exists outside (in an alternate) universe? Even as you read this post, elementary particle pairs are being created out of nothingness and annihilating themselves from of our universe by a force or energy we do not yet understand. No, I am not even implying that these particles are being created by a supreme being. ---
**Author:** ![ronbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ba9def/32.png) [@ronbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ronbo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/98 "2003-07-22T02:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by BrightNShiny_ > \*\*Well, of course, if one wants to learn about physics, one should look to the crackpot theories of a medical doctor who has audited some physics classes. \*\* :smack:I guess I need to screen my cites in more detail.:smack: Maybe I should limit my cites to crackpot Patent Clerks. I will concede that his theory of the creation of the universe is lacking, but the point is that it is within the realm of possiblilty that there is a non-supernatural explanation for the Force(s) that caused the Big Bang. By the way, please show me your cites that whatever Force caused the Big Bang could not possibly be a Natural Force, and that it or Forces like it no longer exist. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/99 "2003-07-22T02:54:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ronbo \* > I know EXACTLY how you both feel. It is SOOOOOO hard to have a decent conversation with people that don’t know what they are talking about. Well, to be fair, we’ve both (also **Diogenes** , which makes 3) tried to show you where your errors are in your reasoning and your facts. If cites don’t do it for you (while you insist on things you can’t prove and base your arguments off them), I don’t see where you get off saying it’s hard to have a decent conversation with _us_. Unless, of course, we aren’t the “people that don’t know what they are talking about”… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071/100 "2003-07-22T04:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ronbo \* > \*\*:smack:I guess I need to screen my cites in more detail.:smack: > > Maybe I should limit my cites to crackpot Patent Clerks. > > I will concede that his theory of the creation of the universe is lacking, but the point is that it is within the realm of possiblilty that there is a non-supernatural explanation for the Force(s) that caused the Big Bang. > > By the way, please show me your cites that whatever Force caused the Big Bang could not possibly be a Natural Force, and that it or Forces like it no longer exist. \*\* It’s already been explained, **Ronbo** , time is part of the universe. There is no “before” the beginning of the universe in the same way that there is no “outside” to the universe. Time starts with the Big Bang. The universe is a phenomenon which is completely exclusive of any hypothetical causal event (short of a supernatural “Creator.” if you want to say that the causal force has _become_ the universe, (i.e. the universe itself is "God) then that is really substantively equivilent to saying there is no God. What is the difference between a universes that, in its entirety, is a non-sentient “God,” and a universe which is just a universe? To bring it back to the OP, what meaning would it hold to say that wea are “one nation under the universe” or “In the universe we trust?” Any attempt at rendering a non-supernatural meaning for “God” in those phrases also renders those phrases meaningless or even absurd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seperation-of-church-and-state/189071.md?page=6)