# Sept. 11th 4th plane **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039 "2004-12-10T00:23:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/1 "2004-12-10T00:23:09Z")
Sometime in the last few years I saw an interview on the news with a group of ATCs who were pretty sure that the plane that crashed in PA was not retaken from the terrorists by passengers but rather shot down by the military. They seemed to have some compelling evidence, but having the lack of a short term memory that I do, I’ve forgotton all of the specifics? Does anyone know if this group was/is credible and what their evidence was? ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/2 "2004-12-10T00:29:25Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Sometime in the last few years I saw an interview on the news with a group of ATCs who were pretty sure that the plane that crashed in PA was not retaken from the terrorists by passengers but rather shot down by the military. They seemed to have some compelling evidence, but having the lack of a short term memory that I do, I’ve forgotton all of the specifics? Does anyone know if this group was/is credible and what their evidence was? According to the 9/11 Commission Report the plane crashed before the military was even notified about Flight 93. Also, the terrorists discussed crashing the plane as they crashed it. Flight 93 was not retaken by passengers. It was crashed t prevent it being retaken. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/3 "2004-12-10T01:06:57Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Sometime in the last few years I saw an interview on the news with a group of ATCs who were pretty sure that the plane that crashed in PA was not retaken from the terrorists by passengers but rather shot down by the military. They seemed to have some compelling evidence, but having the lack of a short term memory that I do, I’ve forgotton all of the specifics? Does anyone know if this group was/is credible and what their evidence was? Given that the crash happened right after a well-verified (via cell phone conversations with the passengers) decision to re-take the plane, and the absence of any credible evidence supporting a shoot-down, I conclude that this theory is for people who think that “Occam’s Razor” is the brand name of the box cutters wielded by the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/4 "2004-12-10T01:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > people who think that “Occam’s Razor” is the brand name of the box cutters wielded by the terrorists. Nice one! I must applaud a fellow Sarczar (one who uses sarcasm with skill and aplomb). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/5 "2004-12-10T01:28:58Z")
Honestly speaking, does it really matter? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/6 "2004-12-10T01:37:25Z")
I went to Shanksville, PA. It is still in the folk memorial stage, like NYC was right after 9/11–handwritten notices, one large handmade cross, a chain-link fence covered with tributes, T-shirts, military clothing, plaques, poems, etc. I spoke to one of the witnesses of the crash. The plane came screaming over the horizon, barely missing a pair of old gigantic mining tunnelers, and hit the edge of a grove of trees. It hit in one piece. The nose is still there. He saw no other planes at all, heard no explosions or impacts until the plane hit, and neither the local fire department or the hundreds of children in the high school a half-mile from the crash site noticed any planes leaving the scene. And as the sister of an Air Force guy, it is hard to miss fighter planes. The last known quotes of the passengers, especially Todd Beamer, are quoted everywhere. At least some of them knew what was happening and decided to take action. They paid with their lives but at least they saved the White House or Capital. I can’t prove that the plane was NOT shot down, I guess, but surely the burden of proof lies with those who say it happened, not me. And not with the good people of and visitors to Shanksville. Everyone should go if they can–it’s a loooong drive from anywhere, but it’s worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Ottenok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ottenok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ottenok)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/7 "2004-12-10T01:39:31Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Honestly speaking, does it really matter? Yes, because now I can’t say, “let’s roll” without feeling like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/8 "2004-12-10T02:01:31Z")
Specifically, the plane crashed at 11 seconds past 10:03. The military was notified of the plane at 10:07. To shoot it down they would have needed a teim machine. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/9 "2004-12-10T02:04:06Z")
teim machine = time machine ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/10 "2004-12-10T02:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > I can’t prove that the plane was NOT shot down, I guess, but surely the burden of proof lies with those who say it happened, not me. To believe that the plane was shot down you have to believe that the government altered or outright faked transcripts including the FAA transcripts, NEADS transcripts, the plane’s recorder transcript, etc. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/11 "2004-12-10T04:26:33Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > I He saw no other planes at all, heard no explosions or impacts until the plane hit, and neither the local fire department or the hundreds of children in the high school a half-mile from the crash site noticed any planes leaving the scene. And as the sister of an Air Force guy, it is hard to miss fighter planes. Not to point out the obvious here, but it’s hard to miss fighter planes if they happen to go right over you. A fighter plane could shoot down a jet airliner from 30 miles away. You’d likely not notice that one. But that being said, the evidence that the plane was brought down by the terrorists as a response to the passenger uprising is rather overwhelming. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/12 "2004-12-10T04:41:22Z")
It’s a reasonable bet that the plane would have been shot down before it reached DC if it hadn’t crashed on its own accord. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/13 "2004-12-10T04:51:02Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s a reasonable bet that the plane would have been shot down before it reached DC if it hadn’t crashed on its own accord. Why is that a reasonable bet? Did you red the 9/11 report? It doesn’t seem probable that the military would have been able to find the the plane in time to shoot it down. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/14 "2004-12-10T08:08:23Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Specifically, the plane crashed at 11 seconds past 10:03. The military was notified of the plane at 10:07. To shoot it down they would have needed a teim machine. Not according to CNN: [http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.hijack.warning/](http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.hijack.warning/) > [@](#): > > –8:42 a.m.: United Airlines flight 93 takes off from Newark International Airport. > > \*\*–9:16 a.m.: FAA informs NORAD that United Airlines flight 93 may have been hijacked. \*\* > > –9:40 a.m.: Transponder signal from United flight 93 ceases and radar contact is lost. > > –10:02 a.m.: After a review of radar tapes, a radar signal is detected near Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Where does your 10:07 figure come from? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/15 "2004-12-10T08:11:16Z")
Oh, and there’s a website about Flight 93 which has a lot of interesting stuff, but it seems to mainly be the rantings of a conspiracy buff and is untimately unconvincing to me. [http://www.flight93crash.com/](http://www.flight93crash.com/) ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/16 "2004-12-10T08:31:24Z")
Oh, and to answer the OPs question, although I haven’t heard the particular ATCs that he’s referring to, I do somewhat remember the arguments made on the website. I’m not promoting it, mind you, but just to mention some of the arguments that were made: 1. The debris field was scattered over an area as much as 8 miles, which suggested to some that the plane must have broken up in the air _before_ it crashed. 2. There were enough clues that the military _should_ have known that the flight was hijacked well before the time that it crashed. (Reversal of course, cell phone calls from passengers, transponder signal lost, hijackers inadvertently keying the mic and transmitting to the tower when they thought they were speaking only to the passengers.) 3. Eyewitnesses reported seeing a second plane nearby at the exact time of the crash. 4. 9-11 call made by passenger from the plane’s lavatory - described “smoke” inside the plane. 5. One ATC reported an F-16 in close pursuit of Flight 93. The website did have a link to the story, and I remember reading it, but it’s not around anymore. Anyway, if you really examine all the claims, it’s not terribly convincing, but those are some of the claims that have been made. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/17 "2004-12-10T08:34:45Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > I went to Shanksville, PA. It is still in the folk memorial stage, like NYC was right after 9/11–handwritten notices, one large handmade cross, a chain-link fence covered with tributes, T-shirts, military clothing, plaques, poems, etc. There are still a couple of spots like this in NYC. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/18 "2004-12-10T08:46:03Z")
In relation to Flight 93 especially - but also the other flights - I’ve always been interested in what kind of resistance was put up and how we know about this. Regarding Flight 93, I’ve read on various sites that 2 flight attendants were killed; and that 2 pilots and 1 passenger were killed. How is this known? How were they killed? Is any more known about the resistance. Another point of interest is why (if it’s true) people were unable to use their cell phones several minutes (the site I read said 8 minutes) before the plane crashed. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/19 "2004-12-10T12:52:58Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Regarding Flight 93, I’ve read on various sites that 2 flight attendants were killed; and that 2 pilots and 1 passenger were killed. How is this known? How were they killed? Is any more known about the resistance. > > Another point of interest is why (if it’s true) people were unable to use their cell phones several minutes (the site I read said 8 minutes) before the plane crashed. IIRC, the phone calls included details of at least one person having their throat slit at the very start of the hijack - a real “don’t mess with us” message to the passengers. As for not being able to use phones, I’ve not heard that one before - but what’s cellphone coverage like in rural Pennsylvania? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/20 "2004-12-10T13:07:35Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > As for not being able to use phones, I’ve not heard that one before - but what’s cellphone coverage like in rural Pennsylvania? It can be difficult to generalize, but often bad. Of course, in the air you can catch more towers and you’re above the geography that often causes problems. I didn’t have a cell phone in 2001 when I started school, but there were dead spots _on campus_ because there wasn’t a good tower. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039.md?page=2)