# Sept. 11th 4th plane **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039 "2004-12-10T00:23:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/21 "2004-12-10T15:09:28Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Not according to CNN: > [CNN.com - Officials: Government failed to react to FAA warning - September 17, 2001](http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.hijack.warning/) > > Where does your 10:07 figure come from? From the official 9/11 Commission Report. Pages 32 and 33 a brief list of the times of important events. Regarding the information on CNN: > [@](#): > > NORAD officials have maintained consistently that had the passengers not caused United 93 to crash, the military would have prevented it from reaching Washington, D.C. That conclusion is based on a version of events that we now know is incorrect. The Langley fighters were not scrambled in response to United 93; NORAD did not have 47 minutes to intercept the flight; NORAD did not even know the plane was hijacked until after it had crashed. It is appropriate, therefore, to reconsider whether United 93 would have been intercepted. > > Had it not crashed in Pennsylvania at 10:03, we estimate that United 93 could not have reached Washington any earlier than 10:13, and probably would have arrived before 10:23.There was only one set of fighters circling Washington during that time frame-the Langley F-16s.They were armed and under NORAD’s control. After NEADS learned of the hijacking at 10:07, NORAD would have had from 6 to 16 minutes to locate the flight, receive authorization to shoot it down, and communicate the order to the pilots, who (in the same span) would have had to authenticate the order, intercept the flight, and execute the order.238 > > At that point in time, the Langley pilots did not know the threat they were facing, did not know where United 93 was located, and did not have shoot-down authorization. > > First, the Langley pilots were never briefed about the reason they were scrambled This is from page 44 and 45. [http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report\_Ch1.htm](http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/22 "2004-12-10T15:29:21Z")
Further, the 9-11 Commission says that Flight 93 was hijacked at 9:28. It’d be awfully hard for NORAD to be informed of that hijacking at 9:16, as the CNN site suggests. Or, we could take this as mounting evidence of the existence of a time machine, in which case Bigfoot might be flown the F-16 that shot down the plane. ---
**Author:** ![RumMunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@RumMunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RumMunkey)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/23 "2004-12-10T16:34:19Z")
If I may offer an explanation of how this conspiracy theory was born: I clearly recall the news reports coming in on Sept. 11 (I’m a bit of a breaking news junkie, I admit), and they went somewhat like this: -An airplane has crashed into the WTC. -2 airplanes have crashed into the WTC. One small commuter plane and one larger one. -A third airplane has crashed into the Pentagon. -A fourth plane has been hijacked and may be heading to Washington DC or Camp David (Bush spent a LOT of time up there his first few months in office). -The fourth plane “is no longer a threat”. -The fourth plane has crashed, but into a remote field, not a populated area. Now, there were some other initial reports that came along the wires, but turned out to be false or unrelated (one was a report of several car bombs going off around the mall in Washington and another was the initial report that eluded to the fact one of the planes was a light Cessna or something. Then there was the report of a plane off the coast that would not respond to radio communications -this was quite a bit later, around noon I’d guess…but I digress). But I think it was the initial rather cryptic report of the plane being “no longer a threat” that sparked the consipracy theory. I believe what happened was as the reports started to prove false/flawed, the media generally shifted away from sounding firm about something, to being more open ended in their reports. So the status of the 4th plane was announced as “no longer a threat”, because they didn’t have much else to say. Nobody saw it go down, nobody knew why it did, and that was probably the only official word given to the media at that time. I remember a friend of mine and I turned to each other when we heard that line and gave each other a “did they shoot it down?” kind of look. We may have even mouthed the words. But that was our (at the time) logical guess based on the way the report was delivered. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/24 "2004-12-10T23:06:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Further, the 9-11 Commission says that Flight 93 was hijacked at 9:28. It’d be awfully hard for NORAD to be informed of that hijacking at 9:16, as the CNN site suggests. I think you’re right: > **[Center for Cooperative Research](https://formspal.com/cooperativeresearch/)** > > Center for Cooperative Research Introduction Objectives Application History of this project What people are saying Introduction The Center for Cooperative Research seeks to encourage grassroots participation and collaboration in the documentation of... > [@](#): > > (9:16 a.m.) > According to a NORAD timeline from a week after 9/11, NORAD claims that Flight 93 may have been hijacked at this time. The timeline inexplicably fails to say when the FAA told them about the hijack, the only flight for which they fail to provide this data. It would seem that CNN mistakenly reported it as the time NORAD said they were _informed_ rather than the time they believed (in retrospect?) the plane to be hijacked. > [@](#): > > Or, we could take this as mounting evidence of the existence of a time machine, in which case Bigfoot might be flown the F-16 that shot down the plane. Why would you need a time machine to go from 9:28 to 10:03? That’s _forward_ in time. So did the 9/11 Commission explain why NORAD changed their story, and why they omitted the time they were notified of the Flight 93 hijacking in their original timeline? If you read this timeline website, starting around 9:30, there were all kinds of clues that 93 had been hijacked. I’m not getting how it supposedly took until 10:07 for NORAD to know about it. Is that explained as well? Did the ATCs just panic and forget to tell them for about 30-35 minutes? ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/25 "2004-12-11T14:51:46Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I think you’re right: > [Center for Cooperative Research - Find Your Bill of Sale Template Online](http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline_flight_ua_93#a928hijack) > > If you read this timeline website, starting around 9:30, there were all kinds of clues that 93 had been hijacked. I’m not getting how it supposedly took until 10:07 for NORAD to know about it. Is that explained as well? Did the ATCs just panic and forget to tell them for about 30-35 minutes? According the 9/11 Report at the time we are talking about NORAD command thought that Delta 1989 was the possible forth hijacking. There was a teleconference that was held that included NORAD and Flight 93 was never mentioned. The FAA had the information on Flight 93 but it did not transmit the information to NORAD. The FAA did not join the teleconference until 10:07, but this FAA official had no information on the hijackings. The problem is that the information of the hijacking never got from the FAA to NEADS. See pages 37 and 38. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/26 "2004-12-11T15:04:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Did the ATCs just panic and forget to tell them for about 30-35 minutes? No. At 9:36 the Cleveland Center tracking Flight 93 asked if military assistance had been requested and told FAA headquarters it was prepared to contact a nearby military base for assistence. The Cleveland Center was told not to do this and that people higher in the command needed to do this. The FAA did no contact the miltary until after Flight 93 crashed. Read pages 28 -34. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/27 "2004-12-11T15:10:34Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Specifically, the plane crashed at 11 seconds past 10:03. The military was notified of the plane at 10:07. To shoot it down they would have needed a time machine. You mean they don’t have one?!! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/28 "2004-12-12T07:56:53Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > According the 9/11 Report at the time we are talking about NORAD command thought that Delta 1989 was the possible forth hijacking. There was a teleconference that was held that included NORAD and Flight 93 was never mentioned. The FAA had the information on Flight 93 but it did not transmit the information to NORAD. The FAA did not join the teleconference until 10:07, but this FAA official had no information on the hijackings. The problem is that the information of the hijacking never got from the FAA to NEADS. > > See pages 37 and 38. Sounds like they screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/29 "2004-12-12T19:02:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Sounds like they screwed up. Not really. The problem was the system in place was not designed to deal with a situation like the one that occurred on September 11. The only plane that the military knew about before it crashed was Flight 11 and that is because the procedures in place were broken. Nobody really screwed up; there was a situation that came up that they were not trained for and there was a system is place that hurt their ability to react in a way that dealt with the situation in the best way. From the Report: > [@](#): > > Clarifying the Record > The defense of U.S. airspace on 9/11 was not conducted in accord with preexisting training and protocols. It was improvised by civilians who had never handled a hijacked aircraft that attempted to disappear, and by a military unprepared for the transformation of commercial aircraft into weapons of mass destruction. As it turned out, the NEADS air defenders had nine minutes’ notice on the first hijacked plane, no advance notice on the second, no advance notice on the third, and no advance notice on the fourth. > > We do not believe that the true picture of that morning reflects discredit on the operational personnel at NEADS or FAA facilities. NEADS commanders and officers actively sought out information, and made the best judgments they could on the basis of what they knew. Individual FAA controllers, facility managers, and Command Center managers thought outside the box in recommending a nationwide alert, in ground-stopping local traffic, and, ultimately, in deciding to land all aircraft and executing that unprecedented order flawlessly. > > 1 ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/30 "2004-12-12T19:49:11Z")
Just a point here. Why, if the military had shot that plane down would they cover it up? That plane had been hijacked by terrorists on an apparent suicide mission. Shooting down that plane would have been an appropriate military response. Isn’t it widely believed that some passengers found out about the WTC crashes, and took over flight 93 and crashed it themselves to prevent the terrorists from crashing it into some large, occupied building? Or is it perhaps these passengers were hoping to take control of the plane themselves, and land it safely? If what happened was the former case, and the passengers decided to crash the plane where it wouldn’t do any damage, what would have been so wrong if the military had taken down the plane? [And yes, I do realize that if some passengers decided to take over the plane and crash it in an unpopulated area, those who took over the plane from the terrorists obviously didn’t take a vote of all the passengers about what to do. However, if those who took over the plane were aware of the WTC crashes, under the circumstances I don’t see any reason to think it was morally wrong for those passengers who took over the plane to sacrifice not only themselves but also the other passengers to save the people who were in the building the terrorists had planned to crash the plane into. Basically this is a war scenario; how else can you look at a situation where passengers are on a plane taken over by terrorists intent on using the plane as a human guided missile? In war, it is reasonable to sacrifice some people (including yourself) if doing so means saving the lives of many more people. If flight 93 was intentionally destroyed by some passengers who believed that doing so would save some innocent lives, I’d donate if someone wanted to erect a monument in their honor.] ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/31 "2004-12-12T20:05:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Isn’t it widely believed that some passengers found out about the WTC crashes, and took over flight 93 and crashed it themselves to prevent the terrorists from crashing it into some large, occupied building? I don’t how widely believed it is, but this belief is wrong. The terrorists crashed the plane to avoid losing control. > [@](#): > > At 9:57, the passenger assault began. Several passengers had terminated phone calls with loved ones in order to join the revolt. One of the callers ended her message as follows: "Everyone’s running up to first class. I’ve got to go. Bye."85 > > The cockpit voice recorder captured the sounds of the passenger assault muffled by the intervening cockpit door. Some family members who listened to the recording report that they can hear the voice of a loved one among the din. We cannot identify whose voices can be heard. But the assault was sustained.86 > > In response, Jarrah immediately began to roll the airplane to the left and right, attempting to knock the passengers off balance. At 9:58:57, Jarrah told another hijacker in the cockpit to block the door. Jarrah continued to roll the airplane sharply left and right, but the assault continued. At 9:59:52, Jarrah changed tactics and pitched the nose of the airplane up and down to disrupt the assault. The recorder captured the sounds of loud thumps, crashes, shouts, and breaking glasses and plates. At 10:00:03, Jarrah stabilized the airplane.87 > > Five seconds later, Jarrah asked, “Is that it? Shall we finish it off?” A hijacker responded, “No. Not yet. When they all come, we finish it off.” The sounds of fighting continued outside the cockpit. Again, Jarrah pitched the nose of the aircraft up and down. At 10:00:26, a passenger in the background said, “In the cockpit. If we don’t we’ll die!” Sixteen seconds later, a passenger yelled, “Roll it!” Jarrah stopped the violent maneuvers at about 10:01:00 and said, “Allah is the greatest! Allah is the greatest!” He then asked another hijacker in the cock-pit, “Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?” to which the other replied, "Yes, put it in it, and pull it down."88 > > The passengers continued their assault and at 10:02:23, a hijacker said, “Pull it down! Pull it down!” The hijackers remained at the controls but must have judged that the passengers were only seconds from overcoming them. The airplane headed down; the control wheel was turned hard to the right. The airplane rolled onto its back, and one of the hijackers began shouting “Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest.” With the sounds of the passenger counterattack continuing, the aircraft plowed into an empty field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, at 580 miles per hour, about 20 minutes’ flying time from Washington, D.C.89 ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/32 "2004-12-12T20:08:39Z")
> [@](#): > > And yes, I do realize that if some passengers decided to take over the plane and crash it in an unpopulated area, those who took over the plane from the terrorists obviously didn’t take a vote of all the passengers about what to do. The passengers did vote to start the assault. > [@](#): > > During at least five of the passengers’ phone calls, information was shared about the attacks that had occurred earlier that morning at the World Trade Center. Five calls described the intent of passengers and surviving crew members to revolt against the hijackers. According to one call, they voted on whether to rush the terrorists in an attempt to retake the plane. They decided, and acted.84 ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/33 "2004-12-12T20:11:11Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Not really. The problem was the system in place was not designed to deal with a situation like the one that occurred on September 11. The only plane that the military knew about before it crashed was Flight 11 and that is because the procedures in place were broken. Nobody really screwed up; there was a situation that came up that they were not trained for and there was a system is place that hurt their ability to react in a way that dealt with the situation in the best way. Yep. The FAA basically exists to direct civilian air traffic, and keep these planes from crashing into each other. The job of the FAA (at least at that time) wasn’t to deal with terrorists hijacking planes with the intent of using them as weapons of mass destruction. FAA controllers aren’t military officials. It isn’t like FAA controllers could pick up a phone and scramble military pilots and give them direct orders to down a plane. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/34 "2004-12-12T20:15:29Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > I don’t how widely believed it is, but this belief is wrong. The terrorists crashed the plane to avoid losing control. I should think if people were trying to take control of a plane from terrorists, this would be a Good Thing. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/35 "2004-12-12T20:18:20Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > The passengers did vote to start the assault. Citation on that? Although it wouldn’t surprise me if the passengers voted against the hijackers. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/36 "2004-12-12T20:18:33Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > I should think if people were trying to take control of a plane from terrorists, this would be a Good Thing. Yes it would be Good Thing, but what does this have to do with what I wrote? ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/37 "2004-12-12T20:27:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Citation on that? Although it wouldn’t surprise me if the passengers voted against the hijackers. The quote from the report is the post. The link to the report is higher in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/38 "2004-12-12T20:30:58Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Yes it would be Good Thing, but what does this have to do with what I wrote? No disagreement from me. I’m just a bit surprised at the heroism of these passengers. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/39 "2004-12-12T20:33:24Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > The quote from the report is the post. The link to the report is higher in the thread. OK, I accept that you are right. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/40 "2004-12-13T06:27:21Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Not really. The problem was the system in place was not designed to deal with a situation like the one that occurred on September 11. Surely the FAA could have found _some_ way to share the information it had with the military. The whole nation knew that planes were being used as weapons that day, and many knew or should have known that Flight93 was hijacked by 9:35 at the latest. If there was no system in place to allow the military to be privy to that information, there damn well _should_ have been. > [@](#): > > The only plane that the military knew about before it crashed was Flight 11 and that is because the procedures in place were broken. Nobody really screwed up; there was a situation that came up that they were not trained for and there was a system is place that hurt their ability to react in a way that dealt with the situation in the best way. > > From the Report: I don’t know that I’d take the report at face value. I’m not suggesting any kind of conspiracy, but I _am_ suggesting that the government is going to put the best face on it they possibly can. Of course they’re not gonna admit anyone screwed up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039.md?page=3)