# Sept. 11th 4th plane **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039 "2004-12-10T00:23:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/41 "2004-12-13T06:29:52Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > FAA controllers aren’t military officials. It isn’t like FAA controllers could pick up a phone and scramble military pilots and give them direct orders to down a plane. That’s a little extreme, don’t you think? Nobody suggested they ought to have done that. But couldn’t they at least _call_ the people who do that? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/42 "2004-12-13T06:51:54Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Surely the FAA could have found _some_ way to share the information it had with the military. The whole nation knew that planes were being used as weapons that day, and many knew or should have known that Flight93 was hijacked by 9:35 at the latest. If there was no system in place to allow the military to be privy to that information, there damn well _should_ have been. > [@blowero](#): > > That’s a little extreme, don’t you think? Nobody suggested they ought to have done that. But couldn’t they at least _call_ the people who do that? Would they really have handy a big book full of top-brass military telephone numbers? And don’t you think they might have been a bit busier doing things like tracking the plane and trying to make contact - things that are their responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/43 "2004-12-13T11:36:41Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Surely the FAA could have found _some_ way to share the information it had with the military. The whole nation knew that planes were being used as weapons that day, and many knew or should have known that Flight93 was hijacked by 9:35 at the latest. Do you think air traffic controllers watch CNN while on the job? Seriously? Controllers are barely allowed a bathroom break - they aren’t getting a current events feed during duty hours. So how would they know? I’ve spoken on a couple occassions to controllers who were on duty that day. When the grounding order came down they knew SOMETHING bad was happening, but they didn’t know _what_. And for the most part they continued in that state of ignorance until their shift ended and they could go down to an airport lounge where a TV was on. On the job, they have a very narrow focus and outside events do not intrude. There were a LOT of people who didn’t know what was happening at the time - surgeons in the middle of operations, farmers out working their fields… not everyone is plugged in 24/7 > [@](#): > > If there was no system in place to allow the military to be privy to that information, there damn well _should_ have been. That’s hindsight talking - what, the mainland US hasn’t been under foreign attack since 1812, right? Last battle in the DC area was 1864. Why would we have an elaborate attack warning system in place? > [@](#): > > I don’t know that I’d take the report at face value. I’m not suggesting any kind of conspiracy, but I _am_ suggesting that the government is going to put the best face on it they possibly can. Of course they’re not gonna admit anyone screwed up. If the government screwed up, it was in ignoring or downplaying intelligence information. The ATC system didn’t screw up - it took on a task it was never intended to do, that is, land _every_ aircraft over the United States as quickly as possible and no one got hurt in the process. The guys trying to intercept the hijacked jets in their fighters did their damdest to catch 'em, it’s not their fault they weren’t scrambled 5 or 10 or 15 minutes sooner. I think some folks have a problem wrapping their heads around the fact you can do everything right and still not win the battle. The Bad Guys found some weakness and exploited it, it’s that simple. > [@](#): > > That’s a little extreme, don’t you think? Nobody suggested they ought to have done that. But couldn’t they at least call the people who do that? At the time, no - any such request for military aid had to be passed up certain channels, and that takes time. Your average controller doesn’t have, as someone else put it, a phone book of military officials with the authority to order a shoot-down of a civilian airplane. The notification system HAS been streamlined and upgraded according to the people I’ve talked to. Would it work better? I don’t know - I’m sort of hoping we don’t have to test it for a long, long, long time, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/44 "2004-12-13T15:36:38Z")
> [@](#): > > If there was no system in place to allow the military to be privy to that information, there damn well should have been. Which is one the reasons for the 9/11 Commission. To determine what kind of system should be in place. > [@](#): > > That’s hindsight talking - what, the mainland US hasn’t been under foreign attack since 1812, right? Not exactly true. The WTC had already been attacked once. Also, Japan bombed the US mainland during WWII. I think the bomb that hit furthest inland hit in or near Detroit. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/45 "2004-12-13T15:41:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know that I’d take the report at face value. I’m not suggesting any kind of conspiracy, but I am suggesting that the government is going to put the best face on it they possibly can. Of course they’re not gonna admit anyone screwed up. To assume the report in wrong on this aspect there would have to be a conspiracy. Transcripts would have to be faked. Recordings would have to be faked. Testimony would have to made up and delivered. Radar reports would have to be faked. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/46 "2004-12-13T15:45:51Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > As for not being able to use phones, I’ve not heard that one before - but what’s cellphone coverage like in rural Pennsylvania? As **astorian** said, it was bad in 2001, though it’s improved markedly. Some of my relatives in Clearfield county, about 65 miles north of Shanksville, didn’t bother to get cell phones until recently because of bad reception. But when I drove north of Williamsport–which is about as rural as Pennsylvania gets–yesterday I had no problems with reception…and, in fact, I got better reception there than here in Niagara Falls. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/47 "2004-12-13T19:34:20Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Would they really have handy a big book full of top-brass military telephone numbers? And don’t you think they might have been a bit busier doing things like tracking the plane and trying to make contact - things that are their responsibility? Well, with “traditional” hijackings, didn’t the hijackers generally end up talking to some kind of negotiator? Yes, I would assume that whoever is monitoring the radio communications and radar tracking would have some sort of contact list in case the proper authorities needed to be called in. Are you saying they have _no_ way to contact the FBI, CIA or U.S. military, and when hijackings occur, they just sit in their glass booth and hope that nothing bad happens? Well, I sure _hope_ you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/48 "2004-12-13T19:35:37Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > To assume the report in wrong on this aspect there would have to be a conspiracy. Transcripts would have to be faked. Recordings would have to be faked. Testimony would have to made up and delivered. Radar reports would have to be faked. Etc. Nonsense. You can _spin_ things one way or the other without it being a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/49 "2004-12-13T20:05:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Do you think air traffic controllers watch CNN while on the job? Seriously? > > Controllers are barely allowed a bathroom break - they aren’t getting a current events feed during duty hours. So how would they know? > > I’ve spoken on a couple occassions to controllers who were on duty that day. When the grounding order came down they knew SOMETHING bad was happening, but they didn’t know _what_. And for the most part they continued in that state of ignorance until their shift ended and they could go down to an airport lounge where a TV was on. On the job, they have a very narrow focus and outside events do not intrude. You guys are all missing the mark here. I’m not saying the _controllers_ were supposed to single-handedly shoot down the plane. But are you saying that an ATC who _discovered_ that a plane had been hijacked would do nothing about it other than to continue staring at the screen and listening to the radio? They don’t have any kind of supervisor that they would tell? And the supervisor doesn’t have _any_ way of contacting NORAD, OR NEADS, or whoever would be the appropriate agency? I find that really, really hard to believe. And if it IS true, then it was a failure to plan sufficiently. I’m kind of perplexed by the way some of you are viewing this. Anyone in the whole country who had a t.v. or a radio on knew what was going on that day. Yet you’re saying that the ATCs didn’t know because they were isolated in their towers, and supposedly nobody saw fit to apprise them of the situation. They should have been the _first_ to know, not the _last_. Not only that, but you seem to think that that’s perfectly acceptable, and represents a smoothly-running organization. I understand that it’s not their _job_, but I find it incomprehensible that nobody would have ever worked out a contingency plan for what to do if a plane were hijacked, other than stand around with their thumbs up their butts. The ATCs would be the first to discover such things; you’re honestly telling me that nodoby thought of that before? These weren’t the first hijackings in the history of the world. > [@](#): > > There were a LOT of people who didn’t know what was happening at the time - surgeons in the middle of operations, farmers out working their fields… not everyone is plugged in 24/7 Hmmm…if it were me, I would put a higher priority on informing air traffic controllers than on informing farmers. They _do_ have phones in the towers, don’t they? > [@](#): > > That’s hindsight talking - what, the mainland US hasn’t been under foreign attack since 1812, right? Last battle in the DC area was 1864. Why would we have an elaborate attack warning system in place? Well that’s kind of a tangent. But I would think that all that money we spend on having the strongest military in the world would go for _something_. There were _plenty_ of warnings from our intelligence services that an attack on the U.S. was in the works. If we _didn’t_ plan for it, we should have. > [@](#): > > If the government screwed up, it was in ignoring or downplaying intelligence information. Yeah, I’ll agree with you there. > [@](#): > > The ATC system didn’t screw up - it took on a task it was never intended to do, that is, land _every_ aircraft over the United States as quickly as possible and no one got hurt in the process. The guys trying to intercept the hijacked jets in their fighters did their damdest to catch 'em, it’s not their fault they weren’t scrambled 5 or 10 or 15 minutes sooner. No, I don’t think anyone’s blaming the fighter pilots. > [@](#): > > I think some folks have a problem wrapping their heads around the fact you can do everything right and still not win the battle. The Bad Guys found some weakness and exploited it, it’s that simple. But they _didn’t_ do everything right. It supposedly took over 1/2 hour from the time that someone knew about the hijacking to the time that the people responsible for doing something about it found out. > [@](#): > > At the time, no - any such request for military aid had to be passed up certain channels, and that takes time. Your average controller doesn’t have, as someone else put it, a phone book of military officials with the authority to order a shoot-down of a civilian airplane. Don’t be daft; there must be _some_ kind of chain of command. Sarcasm doesn’t change that fact. After all, the military was supposedly notified of the hijacking at 10:07. Obviously there was SOME way for them to find out. It just took too long. > [@](#): > > The notification system HAS been streamlined and upgraded according to the people I’ve talked to. Would it work better? I don’t know - I’m sort of hoping we don’t have to test it for a long, long, long time, you know? Well I sincerely hope they’ve worked the bugs out. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/50 "2004-12-13T20:16:52Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Nonsense. You can _spin_ things one way or the other without it being a conspiracy. You’re saying they could have shot down flight 93 and covered it up without a conspiracy? Or covered up the time when the military command found out about each plane without a conspiracy? How can the information known be spun to get to these conclusion without a conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/51 "2004-12-13T20:54:02Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > You’re saying they could have shot down flight 93 and covered it up without a conspiracy? Or covered up the time when the military command found out about each plane without a conspiracy? How can the information known be spun to get to these conclusion without a conspiracy? No, what are you talking about? I don’t believe they shot down Flight 93. And the time _wasn’t_ covered up. It’s well known that various events happened around 9:30 that made it obvious Flight 93 had been hijacked. And it has been stated that the military found out at 10:07. How is that a “cover-up”? What I’m arguing against is _your_ assertion, which is, in essence, “In the 9/11 Commission Report, the government says they didn’t screw up. Therefore they didn’t screw up.” I’m saying that not telling the right people about the hijacking for 1/2 hour, when it was too late to do anything about it, was a mistake. You can argue over _whose_ mistake, but I contend that _someone_ made a mistake, either in planning or in execution. The fact that nobody _admits_ it was a mistake is not really good evidence that it wasn’t. It may be, that in this particular case, it wouldn’t have made any difference. However, it still behooves us to examine why that 1/2 hour delay occured, and figure out what can be done to ensure it doesn’t happen next time, because it just as easily could have been the difference between life and death. It _doesn’t_ help to pass the buck and say, “It’s not _my_ job.” ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/52 "2004-12-13T21:07:25Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > What I’m arguing against is _your_ assertion, which is, in essence, “In the 9/11 Commission Report, the government says they didn’t screw up. Therefore they didn’t screw up.” I am not saying this and the commission didn’t say this. The commission specifically says this was ascrew-up. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/53 "2004-12-13T21:27:57Z")
Glad we agree. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/54 "2004-12-13T21:33:16Z")
I think where we got off was when you said, “Nobody really screwed up”. You obviously didn’t mean that exactly the way you said it. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/55 "2004-12-13T21:50:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I think where we got off was when you said, “Nobody really screwed up”. You obviously didn’t mean that exactly the way you said it. Right. The screw-up was the design of the system. It was not what anybody did on 9-11. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/56 "2004-12-13T22:37:14Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Right. The screw-up was the design of the system. It was not what anybody did on 9-11. No, it’s not fair to say that mistakes were made in the design of the system. It had to try and cope with something that had never been anticipated - could you imaging if some guy high up in the ATC system announced in August 2001 that they would ensure that it would be possible to shoot any passenger plane down within minutes? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/57 "2004-12-14T03:05:42Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > No, it’s not fair to say that mistakes were made in the design of the system. It had to try and cope with something that had never been anticipated - could you imaging if some guy high up in the ATC system announced in August 2001 that they would ensure that it would be possible to shoot any passenger plane down within minutes? I seriously doubt that it had never been considered as a possibility. And again, nobody’s saying that the _Air Traffic Controllers_ should be responsible for shooting down planes, only that there should be some mechanism in place by which they can _pass the information on_ to those who _are_. You seem to think that ATC couldn’t have _told_ anyone about the hijacked plane unless they made the decision to shoot it down themselves. It _is_ possible to notify the military, and for the military to have fighters _intercept_ the plane, without necessarily having _decided_ to shoot it down yet, or at least it _should_ be. I can _easily_ imagine a guy high up in the ATC system announcing that they had a system in place that allowed them to notify the federal government immediately if a plane was hijacked. In fact, I would have been surprised to learn that they _didn’t_ have such a system. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/58 "2004-12-14T03:47:45Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > No, it’s not fair to say that mistakes were made in the design of the system. It had to try and cope with something that had never been anticipated - could you imaging if some guy high up in the ATC system announced in August 2001 that they would ensure that it would be possible to shoot any passenger plane down within minutes? The problem isn’t so much this situation. The problem was the system was so inflexible that it could not be adapted to things that had not bee anticipated. It really speaks to how bad things were that the advanced warnign for the military was best for the first plane. However, screw-up might be the wrong term, but the system design was not good. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/59 "2004-12-14T03:52:48Z")
> [@](#): > > It is possible to notify the military, and for the military to have fighters intercept the plane, without necessarily having decided to shoot it down yet, or at least it should be. It was possible and it did happen. It just didn’t happen fast enough. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039/60 "2004-12-14T05:13:00Z")
I’d like to say I would not have a problem with the AF downing the plane. It would be totally necessary and understandable. Distasteful and unfortunate (I eschew improper uses of the word \*tragic \*- 9/11 was not a classical theatre production). But truth is always preferable to myth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sept-11th-4th-plane/279039.md?page=4)