# September 11th Flight 93 Memorial: The Crescent of Embrace. Let’s Roll (It Over) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621 "2005-09-14T17:03:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/41 "2005-09-15T03:26:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Three issues: > > 1. Is the crescent fairly described as a symbol of Islam? > Answer: yes. I can’t believe anyone seriously disputes this. Actually, a number of Muslims would dispute this. See, for example, [Taking the crescent as a symbol](http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1528&dgn=4) from the [Islam Questions & Answers website](http://63.175.194.25/): > [@](#): > > There is no basis in sharee’ah for taking the crescent or star as a symbol of the Muslims…Whatever the case, symbols and banners must be in accordance with the teachings of Islam, and as there is no evidence that this symbol is prescribed by Islam, it is better not to use it. Neither the crescent nor the star are symbols of the Muslims, even though some Muslims may use them as symbols. The symbol was originally not an Islamic one but a Turkish one, and probably had [pagan (or possibly Byzantine) origins](http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa060401a.htm). The Ottoman Turks were for several centuries the pre-eminent power in the Muslim world, and the Turkish sultans also claimed the title of caliph (successor to the Prophet Muhammad as supreme religious authority among Muslims) until both the caliphate and sultanate were abolished by Atatürk; the Turkish symbol came to be associated with Islam both by Westerners and by many Muslims, but in the Islamic world its use is far from uncontroversial. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/42 "2005-09-15T04:26:58Z")
> [@laina\_f](#): > > [Flags of the Muslim world.](http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa060401b.htm) It is alsoi interesting to note, in light of all the misguided whiners going on about damaging the memory of the victims on Sept 11, 2001, that just about every one of the countries that actually do use some form of crescent in their _national_, (not religious), flags is a secular country, most of whom are aligned with the U.S. in the so-called War Against Terror. Saudi Arabia (whence nearly all the hijackers originated) does not use a crescent symbol; Afghanistan (where bin Laden was holed up at the time) did not use a crescent symbol. So, basically, we have a bunch of twits who are demonstrating massive ignorance as they go out of their way to announce that they are among the _offenderati_, as well as demonstrating a bit of xenophobia, misplaced religious discrimination, and general dumbness. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/43 "2005-09-15T04:37:36Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > A swastika would be a pretty hard shape to come across accidentally, as the shape of a swastika has several elements. But we’re talking about a freakin’ _semicircle_. > Do you raise your fist and curse the night sky at every quarter-moon? [Did somebody say swastikas in nature?](http://www.hongen.com/eng/fun/news/pimg/1201naz1.jpg) OK, it’s not natural. But you know, a semi-Muslim symbol is, IMHO, a nice touch to this place. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/44 "2005-09-15T04:49:50Z")
These are the same guys who piss and moan when people criticize the War on Terr, blubbering the tears crockidilian for the disloyalty to our heroes. Lines about how we encourage our enemies ooze from their venom sacs. How such behavior endangers our troops. I figure just about the best way to endanger our troops is give the bad guys legitimate grievances. Casting the War on Terr as a _religious_ conflict is not only abysmally ignorant, it could hardly be better calculated to infuriate the ordinary Muslim. We are trying to get him _not_ to believe propaganda about infidel Crusaders. Its about not pissing off the people who don’t hate us _yet_! Any such suggestion…that the war on terror is by its nature a religious conflict…should be publicly and instantly rebuked and repudiated by the Bushiviks, in no uncertain terms. Tomorrow, people who are our enemies will use Mr. Tancredo’s remarks to convince people who are not yet our enemies to become so. It is Mr. Tancredo, and not I, whose speech most endangers our troops. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/45 "2005-09-15T13:10:18Z")
Unsurprisingly, the designers are changing the memorial in wake of the criticism of it… [cite](http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_4082255,00.html) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - Planners of a Sept. 11 memorial in rural Pennsylvania plan to alter its crescent- shaped design after critics said it could be seen as a tribute to the hijackers. > > U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., and others had called on the Interior Department to reject an advisory commission’s preferred design, titled Crescent of Embrace, saying its arc of maple trees resembled the lunar crescent used as a symbol of Islam. Also, according to [this article](http://www.tribune-democrat.com/cnhi/tribunedemocrat/homepage/local_story_257234554.html?keyword=leadpicturestory) only 15 people composed the “jury” which helped to choose the design. The 15 included designers, community members and victims families. So, only a few family members had any say, certainly not all of them. According to the same article, it does seem clear that the choice to make a red islamic cresent is accidental rather than planned. This means my initial assumption of this being an example of political correctness run wild is incorrect. It’s just good old fashioned stupidity and ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/46 "2005-09-15T13:50:17Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Unsurprisingly, the designers are changing the memorial in wake of the criticism of it… There wasn’t much of a need to argue because I’m sure most people realized from the outset that there was no way The CoE’s name wasn’t going to be changed or its design altered. And before anyone rolls their eyes or squawks about capitulating to the ignorant hoi polloi with their spastic knees, please consider this: Though it was only a name - or a shape - to you; so are/were:The Pentagon’s poorly named ‘Operation Crusade’, Sports franchises named after American Indians, and [The Auschwitz Cross](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_cross)None of which had malicious intent, but nonetheless stirred the hornet’s nest ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/47 "2005-09-15T15:25:50Z")
I’m just wondering how many people will travel to Shanksville PA to see this thing anyway. Considering that the best view of it may come as you fly over it, something marking where a plane went down is not what I want to see out that little window. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/48 "2005-09-15T15:46:27Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I’m just wondering how many people will travel to Shanksville PA to see this thing anyway. Considering that the best view of it may come as you fly over it, something marking where a plane went down is not what I want to see out that little window. I don’t know about you, but I’m in Somerset County, Pennsylvania at least every other month. I haven’t stopped at the site yet, but I will someday, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/49 "2005-09-15T16:12:21Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to eat my croissant, watch the waning moon rise then use the outhouse. And none of _those_ crescents will offend me, either. Well…if you’ll excuse me, _I’m_ gonna go file my fingernails square because I have just realised that the white part is in the shape of a crescent and therefore I am a terrorist. I will also start using only square plates, cups and bowls because there is too good of a chance that when I am looking down my nose at my coffee mug, the exposed portion of the mug will look like a cresent so my coffee is a terrorist. C’mon people, it is a naturally occuring shape that we all see in the sky every two weeks, which might make it an even more fitting tribute for people who were killed in a plane crash. My issue with the design is that there is a good chance that a storm or drought will kill some or all of the trees, or that the trees will eventually die of old age. That isn’t a very perminant memorial. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/50 "2005-09-15T16:49:55Z")
From _Loose Tails_, Berke Breathed’s first _Bloom County_ compilation, p.38: [voices from a crowd at a bus stop] “Ya know, you penguin types offend me.” “Hey, I’ll tell ya what offends me…dirty words, that’s what” “Polish jokes offend me” “Stereotypes offend ME” “TV sex offends me!!” “Look! That SIGN is offensive!” “I made that sign, and I’m offended!” “Frankly, sir, YOU offend ME!” “Well! I’m offended at your offense!” “Those nudes offend my womanhood!” “Those gays offend my manhood!” “This comic offends my offensiveness!” … [all together] MY GOSH, LIFE IS OFFENSIVE!! AAAAIIIGGGHHH!!! [everybody runs away, screaming] leaving poor Opus all alone, who, nonplussed, remarks to the reader: “Offensensitivity.” This fooforaw just goes to show that “Offensensitivity” has gotten firmly entrenched in America’s right wing. They’re especially quick to react with anguished screams to any perceived insult to Christianity (usually taking the form of our refusal to let them use _our_ governments as billboards for _their_ faith), or to our Dear Leader (usually taking the form of the typical brickbats of politics, i.e. not that different from those they aimed at Clinton back in the 1990s). ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/51 "2005-09-15T17:18:34Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > According to the same article, it does seem clear that the choice to make a red islamic cresent is accidental rather than planned. This means my initial assumption of this being an example of political correctness run wild is incorrect. It’s just good old fashioned stupidity and ignorance. You think none of the people involved were aware that the crescent is a prominent Islamic symbol? Of course they did! They just didn’t think anyone would be so hysterically bilious and so burdened by the weight of the colossal chips on their fucking shoulders as to turn a planned memorial site into a political pissing ground! They were ignorant, all right. Ignorant about the depths to which the cretinous, venal, mentally stunted, morally bankrupt hysterical right wing will sink to find divisive and, most importantly, diverting “controversy”. Think it’s a coincidence that the mendacious pundits and the Bush boggled bloggers chose _this week_, the week where Bush has endured some of the harshest criticism of his tenure and his popularity ratings have hit an all time low, to rave about this complete and utter fucking non-issue? Like fuck it is. But hey, you just keep chugging that tasty Kool-Aid. Have as much as you want. I just hope it’ll make you throw up sooner rather than later. Christ, I fucking hate you people! ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/52 "2005-09-15T17:25:02Z")
So what Arabic country has [this as their flag?](http://bellsouthpwp.net/r/_/r_timmon/SouthCarolinaFlag.gif) ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/53 "2005-09-15T17:30:04Z")
Someone either relishes playing the role of the angry young man - or forgot to take their Lexapro this morning ---
**Author:** ![Re\_PT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a698b9/32.png) [@Re\_PT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Re_PT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/54 "2005-09-15T17:40:40Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If the 9/11 terrorists were neo-nazi’s instead of islamo-facsists, would it be reasonable for the memorial for flight 93 to be made in the shape of a swastika? Interesting question. From [here](http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm) > [@](#): > > These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today’s society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Should people allow shapes to become ‘hijacked’ by groups with agendas? What would we do if a terrorist group started using the cross as a widespread symbol for their cause? That’s if this hasn’t already happened. PT ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/55 "2005-09-15T17:54:29Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > Someone either relishes playing the role of the angry young man - or forgot to take their Lexapro this morning Some of us are not as undisturbed as you by having the public discourse repeatedly taken to and controlled by the lowest common denominator. ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/56 "2005-09-15T22:24:45Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > So what Arabic country has [this as their flag?](http://bellsouthpwp.net/r/_/r_timmon/SouthCarolinaFlag.gif) South Carolina started the fuckin’ Civil War. Seceeding asshats! South Carolinians are terrorists!!! See?! They have the terrorist crescent on their flag and have for centuries!!! Oh, and BTW, I’m on the right and think that this whole issue is retarded (except that I know some smart retards that the comparison offends) so if you could avoid the Bush-bashing and Bush-backer-bashing and deal with the real issue…that’d be grrreat. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/57 "2005-09-15T22:24:55Z")
To be offended by this you must a) accept that a semicircle of trees is actually the symbol of Islam and b) shut out thousands of people for whom the red crescent is a symbol of peace, and hand over the entire religion to terroists. That’s fucking stupid. (I suppose if you accept the trees as a symbol of Islam, there is also the church-and-state issue, but I’ll ignore that for now.) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/58 "2005-09-16T00:37:25Z")
> [@Troy McClure SF](#): > > b) shut out thousands of people for whom the red crescent is a symbol of peace, and hand over the entire religion to terroists. Devil’s advocate: one could argue that those thousands (more like millions?) are irrelevant, even if one believes it true, as I do. This is a memorial for a specific group of people killed in a specific event in a specific way by a specific group of people. Given the context of the deaths the memorial is, well, memorializing, those who complain could claim that the connection is particularly strong to _this specific group of Muslims who were, without doubt, murdering terrorists_. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/59 "2005-09-16T00:42:33Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > It’s a fucking memorial. If you don’t like it, don’t go visit it. 99% of Americans - those who didn’t have family or close friends on Flight 93 - have no right to be bitching about this. I’m not sure I agree with this. Maybe this is the way it should be, but it isn’t the reality we’re living in. 9/11, and most especially Flight 93, has been co-opted as a national symbol, an enduring event that’s considered to be touching everyone in the nation. Even if it is a completely ignorant belief, if someone thinks that the memorial design is somehow symbolizing Islam’s victory over the Flight 93 folks, I think they _do_ have a stake in it, even without direct connection. Remember the controversy over someone wanting to change the memorial based on the famous flag-raising photo at Ground Zero to make the firemen in it “more diverse” racially? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621/60 "2005-09-16T00:55:16Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > 99% of Americans - those who didn’t have family or close friends on Flight 93 - have no right to be bitching about this. I just noticed this line from Leaper’s post, and need to comment. When someone wishes to erect a monument honoring someone, it is really damn rude to bitch about it at all, I don’t give a shit who you are. Spend all this effort to put something together and somebody somewhere is going to spit in your face and say it isn’t good enough. Don’t like the design? Boo fucking hoo. I can go look up a million dead people who’s families don’t get jack shit of a memorial, other than one they pay for themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-11th-flight-93-memorial-the-crescent-of-embrace-let-s-roll-it-over/321621.md?page=4)