# September 26 - The First Obama-McCain Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357 "2008-09-26T16:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/641 "2008-09-27T20:41:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Larry Bird was a hell of a basketball player, but I wouldn’t want him starting for my team in the NBA Finals this season. And Ronald Reagan was pretty good as an actor, but … ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/642 "2008-09-27T20:49:53Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > I have not yet looked at our cites, but I am not surprised at what you say. Bush is a moron. He tasks the miltitary to do an enormous job and cuts their beneits. Makes sense to me without checking becuase I seriously do not have any faith in Bush or the pubbies. They’re way too willing to let the little guy fall while they prosper. The entire Walter Reed fiasco was a shame on our nation. Walter Reed Army Hospital should be setting a high standard for our wounded. Our soldiers deserve the best…and I’ll say it again…the best care possible when they come back even in peacetime. Wounded from war? Theres no question in my mind. _ **They deserve the best medical care we can give.** _ So no I’m not shocked if Bush and his cronies don’t provide it. After all lining the pockets of his friends seems to be more important than taking care of the men and women that serve the country…with the thought that the nation will take care of them if they get hurt. > > Its disgusting. I’m afraid to read your link now. I will. I’m sorry for the tirade I just went on. Bush is not a moron, he is a mainstream Republican. The Republicans talk “compassionate conservative” during election cycles and then always work to destroy benefits for any little guys when actually elected. Republicans have backed Bush very strongly and in lockstep for 7.5 years. Only during an election do they not vote his way. I am deeply disappointed that Democrats have had no spine during this time, and have also failed the American people. It is my hope that the difference is that the Executive branch has all the power. I liked the way Clinton ran the Executive Branch, and I hope that President Obama is able to to the same things. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/643 "2008-09-27T20:51:12Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > And Ronald Reagan was pretty good as an actor, but … I know you meant that as a joke, but he was a barely competent actor. Better then Schwarzenegger, but Arnold was a lot of fun in his action roles. Reagan was never fun. ---
**Author:** ![freekalette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@freekalette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freekalette)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/644 "2008-09-27T20:51:25Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > By the way, when McCain stumbled a bit on Ahmadinejad, did anyone else think Raxacoricofallapatorius? I did! ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/645 "2008-09-27T20:54:02Z")
Here’s some of the [FactCheck.org](http://FactCheck.org) commentary about the debate I found interesting about McCain’s claims: In regards to the Kissinger claim: > [@](#): > > Did Kissinger Back Obama? > > McCain attacked Obama for his declaration that he would meet with leaders of Iran and other hostile nations “without preconditions.” To do so with Iran, McCain said, “isn’t just naive; it’s dangerous.” Obama countered by saying former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger – a McCain adviser – agreed with him: > Obama: Senator McCain mentioned Henry Kissinger, who’s one of his advisers, who, along with five recent secretaries of state, just said that we should meet with Iran – guess what – without precondition. This is one of your own advisers. > > McCain rejected Obama’s claim: > > ``` > McCain: By the way, my friend, Dr. Kissinger, who's been my friend for 35 years, would be interested to hear this conversation and Senator Obama's depiction of his -- of his positions on the issue. I've known him for 35 years. > Obama: We will take a look. > McCain: And I guarantee you he would not -- he would not say that presidential top level. > Obama: Nobody's talking about that. > > ``` > > So who’s right? Kissinger did in fact say a few days earlier at a forum of former secretaries of state that he favors very high-level talks with Iran – without conditions: > > ``` > Kissinger Sept. 20: **Well, I am in favor of negotiating with Iran.** And one utility of negotiation is to put before Iran our vision of a Middle East, of a stable Middle East, and our notion on nuclear proliferation at a high enough level so that they have to study it. And, therefore, **I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level** so that we -- we know we're dealing with authentic... > > CNN's Frank Sesno: Put at a very high level right out of the box? > > Kissinger: Initially, yes. **But I do not believe that we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations.** > > ``` > > Later, McCain’s running mate, Sarah Palin, was asked about this by CBS News anchor Katie Couric, and Palin said, “I’ve never heard Henry Kissinger say, ‘Yeah, I’ll meet with these leaders without preconditions being met.'” Afterward Couric said, “We confirmed Henry Kissinger’s position following our interview.” But most amusing, for me, was that McCain seemed to score points during the talks about earmarks, but he completely mixed up the direction earmark spending has been going in the last 5 years: > [@](#): > > Earmarks Down, Not Up > > McCain was way off the mark when he said that earmarks in federal appropriations bills had tripled in the last five years. > > ``` > **McCain: But the point is that – you see, I hear this all the time. "It's only $18 > billion." Do you know that it's tripled in the last five years?** > > ``` > > **In fact, earmarks have actually gone down.** According to Citizens Against Government Waste, there was $22.5 billion worth of earmark spending in 2003. By 2008, that figure had come down to $17.2 billion. That’s a decrease of 24 percent. > > Taxpayers for Common Sense, another watchdog group, said in 2008 that “Congress has cut earmarks by 23 percent from the record 2005 levels,” according to its analysis. And this is where McCain’s supposed to be _strongest_? Here’s the link to the whole article: [http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking\_debate\_no\_1.html](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_1.html) Something I definitely didn’t know before I read that was that McCain actually voted in favor of the earmark for the $3,000,000 bear DNA research. Why do people still get away with this kind of stuff? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/646 "2008-09-27T21:02:08Z")
> [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](#): > > Why do people still get away with this kind of stuff? Because most people do not bother to follow up and read fact checking that comes out after debates. Why do we get so much right-wing glurge with the same old lies? Because it’s a lot easier to hit that forward button than to check out the allegations. Just make up stuff- Obama wants to raise taxes on people making $42K. It doesn’t matter that he doesn’t, it makes a great sound bite. Say he wants to bomb Pakistan. Who cares what he really said? The truth is completely irrelevant to true blue right wingers. My opinion of McCain has changed somewhat because of the debates. I no longer think of him as Grandpa Simpson, I now think of him as Simon Bar Sinister. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/647 "2008-09-27T21:04:16Z")
> [@The Second Stone](#): > > I know you meant that as a joke, but he was a barely competent actor. Yeah, it was a joke. He was still a better actor than he was a President for the final 2 years of his term. We can blame that on senility or Alzheimer’s, sure — but my point in mentioning Reagan specifically is that he is _exactly_ why we should be looking at the Recent McCain rather than the Old McCain? The man’s not young, and this is not the time when the U.S. needs to elect another Reagan. Even supposing McCain doesn’t fall victim to Alzheimer’s, he’s going be lucky to beat the actuarial tables during 4 years in office. > [@Crocodiles and Boulevards](#): > > McCain: But the point is that – you see, I hear this all the time. “It’s only $18 > billion.” Do you know that it’s tripled in the last five years? I say this is one mistake McCain can afford to continue making. Don’t correct him. After all, if earmark spending has _tripled_ despite his best efforts at trimming costs, he must not be any damn good at saving the taxpayers any money. On the other hand, if earmark spending has gone down, that’s actually proof (in a way) that he’s having an effect. Why he’d get that backwards, when it so clearly benefits his stated position, is beyond me. See point #1 about Reagan. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/648 "2008-09-27T21:05:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Because most people do not bother to follow up and read fact checking that comes out after debates. Why do we get so much right-wing glurge with the same old lies? Because it’s a lot easier to hit that forward button than to check out the allegations. Just make up stuff- Obama wants to raise taxes on people making $42K. It doesn’t matter that he doesn’t, it makes a great sound bite. Say he wants to bomb Pakistan. Who cares what he really said? The truth is completely irrelevant to true blue right wingers. > > My opinion of McCain has changed somewhat because of the debates. I no longer think of him as Grandpa Simpson, I now think of him as Simon Bar Sinister. Does that make Obama _ **Underdog** _? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/649 "2008-09-27T21:50:37Z")
My first thoughts on the debate were centered around how it played to the undecideds. (And I think that the immediate polling shows that Obama won there, but the next few days will tell us more.) But the other issue is how it plays to motivating turn-out from their respective corners. I think that Obama’s turn-out is solid and, if anything, helped. McCain’s hard Right movements and choice of Palin excited his base, but Palin is beginning to disappoint even some of them and McCain really dissed Bush pretty badly in his desire to build some distance. Any thoughts on whether or not there will be a backlash against him from those who will not appreciate hearing those words? ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/650 "2008-09-27T22:50:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > My first thoughts on the debate were centered around how it played to the undecideds. (And I think that the immediate polling shows that Obama won there, but the next few days will tell us more.) But the other issue is how it plays to motivating turn-out from their respective corners. I think that Obama’s turn-out is solid and, if anything, helped. McCain’s hard Right movements and choice of Palin excited his base, but Palin is beginning to disappoint even some of them and McCain really dissed Bush pretty badly in his desire to build some distance. > > Any thoughts on whether or not there will be a backlash against him from those who will not appreciate hearing those words? Yeah, McCain last night flip-flopped on most of the flip-flops he did in the last couple of years to get those voters. But he didn’t do the biggie, the one that really matters the most to those voters - the tax cut. Push to shove, that’s the only thing they really care about. Well, that and telling other people what to do about sex and reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/651 "2008-09-27T22:59:32Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Yeah, McCain last night flip-flopped on most of the flip-flops he did in the last couple of years to get those voters. But he didn’t do the biggie, the one that really matters the most to those voters - the tax cut. Push to shove, that’s the only thing they really care about. Well, that and telling other people what to do about sex and reproduction. And that the war is honorable and good and must be continued forever. He didn’t change his stance on that. But all the other flips remained fliped, not flopped. Oh, and torture. He has not changed his change from last year that torture is now okay as long as we call it enhanced interrogation. He hasn’t recently changed his position that it is now okay. But other than that, he has remained firm in all his positions. Well, other than the necessity of debating Friday night, but he was for it before he was against it and then for it again. But other than that, he hasn’t changed his positions. Nothing has changed since last night. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/652 "2008-09-27T23:21:03Z")
My [favorite line](http://www.debatableland.com/the_debatable_land/2008/09/mccain-vs-obama-in-mississippi.html) from any internet source about the debate: “McCain thinks it’s terrible Obama hasn’t been to Afghanistan. Of course, his Vice-President hasn’t even been to Saskatchewan.” ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/653 "2008-09-27T23:26:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > And that the war is honorable and good and must be continued forever. He didn’t change his stance on that. But all the other flips remained fliped, not flopped. Oh, and torture. He has not changed his change from last year that torture is now okay as long as we call it enhanced interrogation. He hasn’t recently changed his position that it is now okay. But other than that, he has remained firm in all his positions. Well, other than the necessity of debating Friday night, but he was for it before he was against it and then for it again. But other than that, he hasn’t changed his positions. Nothing has changed since last night. Well, he said we should never torture again last night, which apparently means we tortured before. I’d like him to tell us when. ETA: Then we can prosecute! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/654 "2008-09-27T23:34:36Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Does that make Obama _ **Underdog** _? Maybe. I do get a humble and lovable vibe from him. But it would be _ **REALLY** _ inappropriate for anyone to start calling him “Shoeshine Boy”. I can’t stress that enough. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/655 "2008-09-27T23:46:25Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Maybe. I do get a humble and lovable vibe from him. > > But it would be _ **REALLY** _ inappropriate for anyone to start calling him “Shoeshine Boy”. I can’t stress that enough. And it’s probably at least as inappropriate to call Michelle “Polly Purebred”. ---
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/656 "2008-09-27T23:54:01Z")
I had to work today, which meant that I couldn’t spend all day reading all the reports on how the debate came out. I would like to thank everyone that participated in this thread. There has been a lot of good observations and clarifications and cites regarding the debate. I know this board tends toward the democratic, or at least towards Obama, but I do think that this thread has shown that a good debate is healthy. I wish our politicians could speak as frankly to each other as we do here. I think it would serve us well, even if we need moderation at times. I thank you all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/657 "2008-09-28T00:22:23Z")
So…we all have to leave now? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/658 "2008-09-28T00:29:43Z")
Skipped the last few pages of this thread, but I did have a thought today (just the one): I think Obama could shown a little more edge, and I know where. After the third or fourth, “Senator Obama doesn’t understand…” dig, I think he should have begun, “Y’know, there are things I don’t understand, and I’d like Senator Mccain to explain them to me: what he was talking about when he said that he wouldn’t necessarily talk to the Prime Minister of Spain, a NATO ally of ours. Please explain why you said that, Senator. And when you get done, I’d like to hear what was so funny about you singing ‘Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran.’ Because I don’t understand why a Presidential candidate makes fun of people dying, whether Americans or not. Go ahead, Senator McCain, educate me.” I know he did bring up both those points, but I’m wondering if a little more edge might have pricked the bubble of McCain’s wrath, and shown a little more backbone. Your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/659 "2008-09-28T00:39:50Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Skipped the last few pages of this thread, but I did have a thought today (just the one): I think Obama could shown a little more edge, and I know where. After the third or fourth, “Senator Obama doesn’t understand…” dig, I think he should have begun, “Y’know, there are things I don’t understand, and I’d like Senator Mccain to explain them to me: what he was talking about when he said that he wouldn’t necessarily talk to the Prime Minister of Spain, a NATO ally of ours. Please explain why you said that, Senator. And when you get done, I’d like to hear what was so funny about you singing ‘Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran.’ Because I don’t understand why a Presidential candidate makes fun of people dying, whether Americans or not. Go ahead, Senator McCain, educate me.” > > I know he did bring up both those points, but I’m wondering if a little more edge might have pricked the bubble of McCain’s wrath, and shown a little more backbone. Your thoughts? It would have pleased his base (such as you, I presume), but aliented the independent voters he is trying to attract. One reason most independent voters seem to think he won the debate, according to most surveys, is (IMHO) because he was the calm, cool, reassuring person. As opposed to McCain, who attacked a lot more. Ed ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/660 "2008-09-28T01:14:16Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > It would have pleased his base (such as you, I presume), but aliented the independent voters he is trying to attract. One reason most independent voters seem to think he won the debate, according to most surveys, is (IMHO) because he was the calm, cool, reassuring person. As opposed to McCain, who attacked a lot more. > > Ed You may be right about whom he was seeking to appeal to. He usually knows what he’s doing, and I usually don’t. > [@](#): > > Here are five ways Obama can do even better in the next debate, while being true to his own style: [Five Ways Obama Can Nail the Next Debate ... And Still Be Obama | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/five-ways-obama-can-nail_b_129895.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357.md?page=34)