# September 26 - The First Obama-McCain Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357 "2008-09-26T16:49:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/661 "2008-09-28T01:16:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. You want to ignore everything except the last two years? Now, I can see why you might want to, but that’s not how it works. McCain has a great record. Records matter more than words. Wanting to ignore that is pathetic. He has proven himself to go against his own party more than any other Senator. He took counter positions on the Surge and immigration very recently. I don’t think McCain missing votes recently matters much. I do think his change in positions on so many issues in order to get right wing support is pretty dam significant. I don’t see any reason to hold the positions he held before over the ones he’s voted for and stated more recently. If anything his shift in position on key issues prompts me to trust him less than I did in 2000. When we consider that and the fact that he’s voted with Bush 90% of the time it’s too close to a repeat of the last eight years for me to risk. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/662 "2008-09-28T01:54:56Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Wasn’t that whole exchange in the debate a niggle about the difference between preconditions and preparation? It obviously was. When JM was talking about “the president” meeting only with pre-conditions met, he meant the big-P President personally and individually, whereas when BO was talking about “the president” meeting without pre-conditions, he meant “the executive,” including those secretaries and undersecretaries in the foreign service. I have no idea if that represents a position shift for Obama and I frankly don’t care, but I was impatient that quite a bit of time in a “debate” was spent with the two of them arguing over a point upon which they apparently don’t really disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/663 "2008-09-28T01:57:31Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If anything his shift in position on key issues prompts me to trust him less than I did in 2000. When we consider that and the fact that he’s voted with Bush 90% of the time it’s too close to a repeat of the last eight years for me to risk. As I said in another thread, you might find [this column](http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/McCain_a_Bush_clone_These_numbers_dispute_that.html) in the Philadelphia Inquirer interesting. I did. It dispels all that “McCain voted 90% of the time with Bush” folderol (which McCain advanced himself at one point to stoke up his conservative cred): > [@](#): > > As it’s being used, the 90 percent figure, from Congressional Quarterly, is nonsensical. As Washington Post congressional reporter Jonathan Weisman explained, “The vast majority of those votes are procedural, and virtually every member of Congress votes with his or her leadership on procedural motions.” > > Obama might want to be a little careful with these attacks, as the same measure has him voting with Democrats 97 percent of the time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/664 "2008-09-28T02:05:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Obama might want to be a little careful with these attacks, as the same measure has him voting with Democrats 97 percent of the time. Obama isn’t running away from a same-party unbelievably unpopular president under a “maverick” image, either. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/665 "2008-09-28T02:12:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t think McCain missing votes recently matters much. I do think his change in positions on so many issues in order to get right wing support is pretty dam significant. I don’t see any reason to hold the positions he held before over the ones he’s voted for and stated more recently. If anything his shift in position on key issues prompts me to trust him less than I did in 2000. When we consider that and the fact that he’s voted with Bush 90% of the time it’s too close to a repeat of the last eight years for me to risk. F%#@!!! I just wrote a long (and, of course, brilliant) response, but my internet connection screwed up and then I was logged out. And this is after the batteries in my wireless keyboard EXPLODED a couple hours ago. Aaarrrggghhhhh. I have to run now, but I promise more brilliance later tonight or tomorrow. I’ll just say now that I think your position makes perfect sense. If you don’t agree with his positions now, you shouldn’t vote for him. Unless, of course, you love your country and want to save it from the nascent jaws of socialism.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/666 "2008-09-28T02:16:05Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Obama isn’t running away from a same-party unbelievably unpopular president under a “maverick” image, either. No, but he has struggled with the charge of being a slave to party orthodoxy, too liberal, unwilling to abandon party lines at his own political risk. That sort of thing. That’s not really the point, though. The 97% has about as much meaning as the 90% in reality–but you can’t embrace one and reject the other. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/667 "2008-09-28T02:21:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Unless, of course, you love your country and want to save it from the nascent jaws of socialism.:dubious: “Nascent”? :dubious: indeed. Given the past week, socialism is like a battered women’s shelter to which our country oughtta be running. We oughtta be taking out a restraining order against unfettered capitalism. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/668 "2008-09-28T02:34:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Nascent”? :dubious: indeed. > > Given the past week, socialism is like a battered women’s shelter to which our country oughtta be running. We oughtta be taking out a restraining order against unfettered capitalism. > > Daniel Yeah, I have to say that socialism of the western European flavor is looking pretty good right now. Not the communism of the erstwhile USSR or any of the authoritarian states, but the democratically elected parliaments of Britain, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, etc. Their markets, while somewhat disrupted, are weathering this storm much better than ours are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/669 "2008-09-28T02:39:12Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Unless, of course, you love your country and want to save it from the nascent jaws of socialism.:dubious: You know perfectly well, of course, that Obama is no more a socialist than you are. IF ONLY! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/670 "2008-09-28T02:42:03Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > It would have pleased his base (such as you, I presume), but aliented the independent voters he is trying to attract. One reason most independent voters seem to think he won the debate, according to most surveys, is (IMHO) because he was the calm, cool, reassuring person. As opposed to McCain, who attacked a lot more. And judging from what I’ve seen of Obama, he simply is more comfortable as the steady, calm one, not as some sort of attacking firebrand. In a debate, I think it makes sense for him to stick to his strengths. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/671 "2008-09-28T02:44:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You know perfectly well, of course, that Obama is no more a socialist than you are. IF ONLY! Maybe I should start a different thread with this, but why are we so terrified by even the word socialism? As a nation are we such committed gamblers that we prefer the roller coaster ride to the mild ups and downs? Or is that that we’re each so conceited that we’re convinced we each have a great chance to make the big bucks here that we wouldn’t necessarily in a socialist country (by the way, people do get rich there too)? Or is it that we really do hate poor people so much? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/672 "2008-09-28T02:48:21Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Or is that that we’re each so conceited that we’re convinced we each have a great chance to make the big bucks here that we wouldn’t necessarily in a socialist country (by the way, people do get rich there too)? This. Joe Six-pack has internalized the Horatio Alger pseudohistory of the Land of Opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/673 "2008-09-28T03:27:22Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > This. Joe Six-pack has internalized the Horatio Alger pseudohistory of the Land of Opportunity. WHYY, the PBS affiliate for the Philly area, ran Oliver Stone’s \*Wall Street \*tonight, a singularly topical choice of movie for the moment. It’s ironic that the people who will benefit from the Bush/McCain financial gifts really don’t care about money _qua_ money anymore. It’s simply a way to say “I won.” They’re so far beyond that financially, because they can’t possibly spend the tiniest fraction of the money they have (Ironic, because a minor set-back for them could mean life or death to most of the rest of us, and I mean that quite literally). They couldn’t care less if they create, destoy, or disrupt people’s lives, unless they happen to know those people so that it’s personal to them. Some of them are very nice and even good personally, but they have the ability to divorce business from humanity from people so completely that they are completely devoid of morality or even ethics while doing business. I didn’t get this from the movie; it was something I already knew, but the movie does a very good job of capturing and presenting it well, and even making the people who do it look somewhat attractive and sympathetic. So while Joe Six-pack thinks that he’s going to benefit from the Bush/McCain policies in starting a small business, what he doesn’t know is that these policies are really in support of the guys on Wall Street who have nothing to do with providing goods or services, and are dealing with huge amounts of money that the vast majority of Joe Six-packs will never even dream of. The only thing they are doing of any value is providing credit, and I’m not sure but that in the long run, we might be better off with rather less of that. And I’m quite sure that the people who grant it ought to be the people who continue to hold it unless they go out of business entirely. Unfortunately (IMO), the Republicans, culminating in Karl Rove, have somehow managed to convince the Joe Six-packs that policies that benefit these people have at the very least a high potential to benefit them, while a Democratic plan of actually creating jobs by granting seed money to various industries to promote the development of and retooling to green energy sources will not. I agree that if credit dries up too far and fast, the economy will bomb, so I am willing to go along with a well-overseen bailout, with hedges to try to ensure companies don’t make out like bandits. Sorry, I seem to have wandered entirely Off Topic here. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/674 "2008-09-28T08:07:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You know perfectly well, of course, that Obama is no more a socialist than you are. IF ONLY! Is that because socialism conflicts with Islam in some way? But his redistribution of income scheme certainly is a start. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/675 "2008-09-28T08:08:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Nascent”? :dubious: indeed. > > Given the past week, socialism is like a battered women’s shelter to which our country oughtta be running. We oughtta be taking out a restraining order against unfettered capitalism. > > Daniel You gotta point there. But now need to throw out what should be fixed. And that’s the “unfettered” part. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/676 "2008-09-28T12:00:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He didn’t vote against it. He spoke out against it, but he wasn’t in the US Congress when the vote was taken back in '02. He got elected in '04, remember. Thank you, and Jay Jay, for correcting me. But it still shows Obama’s foresight and wisdom,rather than just jumping to a conclusion that proved to be a bad thing for our country. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/677 "2008-09-28T12:35:51Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > It would have pleased his base (such as you, I presume), but aliented the independent voters he is trying to attract. One reason most independent voters seem to think he won the debate, according to most surveys, is (IMHO) because he was the calm, cool, reassuring person. As opposed to McCain, who attacked a lot more. Obama HAS to be the calm, cool, and reassuring one. Mostly because that is his natural personality, but there is no way he can be the “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore” candidate. He cannot be the Angry Black Man, it scares the bejeezus out of too many whites. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/678 "2008-09-28T14:46:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Obama HAS to be the calm, cool, and reassuring one. Mostly because that is his natural personality, but there is no way he can be the “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore” candidate. He cannot be the Angry Black Man, it scares the bejeezus out of too many whites. From watching his face at the debates I think there’s a temper in there, it will probably come out sooner or later. I also wish the comedians/writers would get over their fear/aversion of parodying him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/679 "2008-09-28T15:01:07Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > From watching his face at the debates I think there’s a temper in there, it will probably come out sooner or later. > > I also wish the comedians/writers would get over their fear/aversion of parodying him. I don’t think there’s an aversion to it, I think they’re just having a difficult time finding a handle for how to do it. Parody and caricature are based on exaggeration of recognizable characteristics, but it’s hard to find traits in Obama’s personality, demeanor or speaking style which lend themselves to exaggeration. No one has found a good “hook” yet for how to lampoon Obama. It’s not that they’re afraid to. They sure weren’t afraid to lampoon the Clintons or Gore or Kerry. They just quite figured out HOW to yet. They had trouble finding a handle on GHWB for a while too, until Carvey figured out how to do it. Somebody will find away to do Obama sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357/680 "2008-09-28T15:03:14Z")
They’ve got the ears down. They do need to capture his halting, roundabout style. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/september-26-the-first-obama-mccain-debate/465357.md?page=35)