# Serenity (Open spoilers a plenty! You've been warned!)) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 29, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011 "2005-09-29T13:49:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/61 "2005-10-01T09:29:28Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Anyone have fanboys and -girls in costumes? I had a Mal, a Wash, a Zoe and several Inaras. Well, I put on my khaki Dockers, brown shirt, work boots (I use them for motorcycle boots) and broke out my brown canvas duster. I would’ve strapped on my stag-horn gripped Ruger Vaqueros, but the local theaters kind frown on that stuff. So I wasn’t so much in “costume” as in “theme.” ---
**Author:** ![gardentraveler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gardentraveler/32/3576_2.png) [@gardentraveler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gardentraveler)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/62 "2005-10-01T09:43:57Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Anyone have fanboys and -girls in costumes? I had a Mal, a Wash, a Zoe and several Inaras. I had two people in hats like the one Jayne’s mom sent him… GT ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/63 "2005-10-01T10:36:07Z")
> [@Sengkelat](#): > > Mr. Universe…such a blatant plot device. But he had the best prom _ever_. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/64 "2005-10-01T11:37:59Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > With such an influence from Chinese culture and language, is it ever explained why there aren’t any Chinese people in the system? 😕 There’s Chinese people all over the place. They’ve just been in the background so far. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/65 "2005-10-01T12:33:57Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Anyone have fanboys and -girls in costumes? I had a Mal, a Wash, a Zoe and several Inaras. Like **ExTank** , I’m not really going to be in a ‘costume’. I’ve got my riding boots, my crapped-out khaki coat, my chinese-style shirt and prairie skirt… but it’s all clothes I wear anyway (though perhaps not all together). Frankly, I’m a bit scared. I saw the movie back in June, but the friends I’m going with haven’t. And they love Wash. And discussing it with them (not spoiling, mind you), they don’t seem to remember about the Black Cold Heart of Joss Whedon. 'Twill be an interesting evening. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/66 "2005-10-01T12:37:35Z")
> [@Sengkelat](#): > > Okay, everyone ready your flamethrowers, you’re about to hate me. > > A list of things I didn’t like about this movie: > \ > > River’s extraction from the lab being re-written. I understand that it made for nice quick exposition, but it also changed Simon’s character; rather than being a non-heroic guy who’d paid a lot of money to get someone else to get River out, (remember the pilot episode?) suddenly he’s a dashing hero who’s also a cunning master of disguise. Remember how good he was at that in Jayne’s Town? Pretty appalling at it. I guess he forgot how. > > Mal. He was all over the place. His character seemed right when he went to save Inara; it showed him being clever, loyal, cocky, and ruthless when he shot the assassin. But much of the rest of the time, it didn’t feel like the character was the same one I’d grown to love from the series. > > \ > > Rather than getting Firefly on steroids, I felt like we got Firefly watered down. Where was the characteristic music? What about the funky cowboy talk? And the ship interior seemed spruced up to make everything sleeker and cleaner, despite the show supposedly being about life on the fringes, where everything’s not neat and tidy. It felt in a lot of ways like it had been sanitized for a mainstream audience. > > Mr. Universe…such a blatant plot device. > > The hologram lady said that everyone stopped going to work. But, uh, what about all those people who were dead at what looked like a place of employ? And how exactly were they preserved by being sealed in? Even if the room was sterile, the people would still have intestinal fauna that would rot them. > > River got a signal from the toothy octopus commercial, and she said “Miranda.” Huh? Was the alliance broadcasting something to make her think about one of their big screw-ups? That makes no sense. I could see that they’d perhaps want to trigger her so she’d flip out and thus be easier to find, but why did she say Miranda? > > \ > > Oh, and Jewel Staite definitely was better looking in the series. I agree with these and came in to say so. Additionally, I felt like, had I not been a fan of the show, I’d be thinking, “The captain is a real asshole! Why on earth hasn’t someone taken him out and beaten him silly by now?” He was so harsh, and so mean, and there was none of his usual gentle love of his crew or ship to soften it and make you understand why they put up with his abuse. OTOH, > [@](#): > > The bad guy decided to let them live, and help them get Serenity repaired. Why? He was a remorseless stone-cold killer. And suddenly he develops a heart? That’s just bad writing. No, no no! His moral compass never wavered, not for a second. He is a Lockian philosopher (John Locke the philosopher, not the character on _Lost_): that which does the most good for the greatest number of people is the morally right thing to do. He has to kill hundreds, but it’s in the service of a government which is acting for the welfare of millions. When he sees The Miranda Wave, he is forced to realize that the Parliment is not in fact in service to those millions, it is corrupt and interested in its own power and protecting that at all costs: not costs to River and Simon et al, but costs to the millions of Mirandians they killed, left to rot (or not) and then invented cover stories for. His blind obiedience to them was predicated on the idea that they were in the moral right. It was the corruption within the Parliment that made The Operative decide he couldn’t work for them anymore. Once that decision was made, then he no longer had a reason to kill Mal or the crew. It was never personal, it was the (morally correct) job, for him. He was a brilliantly written character, and for more morally consistent then our crew. > [@panamajack](#): > > Something else about the Reavers. In River’s dream the boy talks about the Reavers, even though the Pax disaster hadn’t occurred yet. How do you figure? It was 12 years before the crew found the Mirandians. River is 17 in “present day”. She was certainly older than 5 in that dream. 'Sides, it was a **dream**. I’m sure the teacher didn’t force them all to lie down for no reason nor strew the classroom with bodies, either. Dreams mix up elements in our unconscious all the time. So yes, there were things I had problems with, but overall I still love my captain, love my crew, and just about died inside when they had to disfigure Serenity. I’ll never figure out how this crew succeeds in making the ship a character to me, where all those other sci-fi shows that claim to do the same (even the ones with “living ships”) fail miserably. When they had to “Reaverize” Serenity, they might as well have made little cuts all over Kaylee and put metal bits in her face; it was that brutal. And then to smash her to bits afterward! Oooh! I didn’t think even \*\*Serenity \*\*was safe from “ohmigod, Joss is going to kill them all!” ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/67 "2005-10-01T13:03:09Z")
Incidentally, Jayne has always been far more about comic relief than Wash. Especially in the movie, but even in the series he always seems to get the most laughs. The running gag about grenades was great :). ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/68 "2005-10-01T13:13:49Z")
> [@Cat Fight](#): > > Also, I never really understood the expression “an ass that just won’t quit,” but Mal’s jodhpurs are just… breathtaking. Never was there a moniker more apt than “Captain Tightpants”. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/69 "2005-10-01T13:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Cat Fight** > Also, I never really understood the expression “an ass that just won’t quit,” but Mal’s jodhpurs are just… breathtaking. Hey, \*\*Cat \*\*- if you need any more motivation for buying those DVD’s ASAP: Mal’s nekkid in one of the episodes. All nekked. With nice views of that ass. And it’s just as nice not in the tightpants. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/70 "2005-10-01T13:57:02Z")
Mrs. Plant would like to comment: > [@](#): > > ` :wally . That’s what I think of Joss Whedon. Why? Because of the way he treats women in this movie. In the series, Zoe was a solider and a wife and managed to balance both, even if the wife part was sometimes threatened by her loyalty to Mal. She had a wonderful relationship with Wash. So what happens? Wash gets killed by a giant toothpick. His death was unwarranted from a literary standpoint and only provided momentary shock and reminder that life is tenuous. Not only have I lost a favorite character but now Zoe is reduced to being simply a soldier. > > Kaily is portrayed as a sex-starved mechanic. She’s not interested in a relationship with Simon. She simply wants to get laid. (Pardon my bluntness but I am less than happy with the characterization in the movie.) > > And what about Inara? She is a whore – sells herself for money, no matter how you dress it up in companion robes and rituals. > > Mr. Universe’s “wife” was a robot. (And why did he have to marry her in a Jewish ceremony??) > > Zoe was the closest thing to a fully realized woman and now she is not. What does that say about Whedon’s view of women? > > It’s the same thing that used to drive me crazy about Bonanza: the minute one of the boys or Ben formed a relationship with a woman, you knew she was dead. > > Why can’t a man and a woman have a great relationship and still be heroes? The above comments are not necessarily those of the management. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/71 "2005-10-01T14:18:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Mrs. Plant would like to comment: > > > [@](#): > > > > Zoe was the closest thing to a fully realized woman and now she is not. What does that say about Whedon’s view of women? Excuse me??? What does it say about \*your \*view of women that Zoe is no longer fully realized without a husband? I love my husband dearly, but I know if he died I would not become less of a woman, thank you very much. I can think of plenty of objections to Wash’s death, but this one really rankles. They were in a WAR. That was emphasized several times. In war, bad things happen, sometimes arbitrarilly, sometimes suddenly. The moment you let your guard down is the moment your Lieutenant, your whole battalion or your husband gets killed by the very thing you weren’t looking at because you were too busy looking down the barrel of a gun. (Goodness, I even heard all that in Zoe’s voice as I typed it!) Not only do I not think it made Zoe’s struggle to integrate her soldier and wively parts more poinant - it’s the perfect literary and dramatic choice! What happens when her two worlds are literally integrated - war accident meets husband’s ribcage. That’s literary gold in terms of dramatic through-line: Wash always wanted to be a part of Zoe’s soldiering world like Mal is; when he finally is, it kills him. He was never the soldier, and wasn’t cut out to be (see the comic for more on this.) It’s _War Stories_ magnified for the big screen. > [@](#): > > And what about Inara? She is a whore – sells herself for money, no matter how you dress it up in companion robes and rituals. And the fact that you find that wrong says more about you than Joss, I think. There are plenty of people (tons on this very board) who think prostitution should be legalized and regulated just as it in in the 'Verse. > [@](#): > > Mr. Universe’s “wife” was a robot. (And why did he have to marry her in a Jewish ceremony??) An obvious nod to the Buffybot, and required for the “oh, yeah…there’s another whole huge part of this space station no one noticed broadcasting” plot device to work. Someone had to tell Mal and The Operative where to go for their final showdown. > [@](#): > > Why can’t a man and a woman have a great relationship and still be heroes? They can. See Riley and his wife Samantha in _Buffy_. But you don’t see too much of them, do you? 'Cause marital bliss is boring! Joss is all about the conflict, as is all good drama and literature. I agree with you about Kaylee, though. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/72 "2005-10-01T15:16:38Z")
Good news! My brother saw it and loved it! … why is this good news? He’s a welder by trade who hates Buffy, doesn’t much like Star Trek and knew nothing of Firefly going in. A pretty good example of the typical audience member. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/73 "2005-10-01T15:41:46Z")
I agree that Kaylee got somewhat short shrift in the movie. There are nods to what we fans know her character to be, but yeah, a newbie isn’t going to pick up on that. I remember thinking at a point early on that her face spoke volumes in a very brief moment, but now I can’t remember what the situation was. I think she suffered the same problem as Serenity-as-home. There just wasn’t enough time. They did a pretty damn good job of introducing everything to newbies, all things considered. For me, the one aspect that was truly clunky was stuff like, “It’s Simon, _your brother_,” or “Zoe, go tell \*your husband \* . . .” But I totally understand why they had to do it. **WhyNot** , I like your explanation of the Operative’s change of heart. I was thinking that he saw that to make people stop sinning necessarily requires stopping them from doing _anything_, but I think you’re interpretation holds up better. Random musings: I liked that they answered a perennial question right off the bat: what manner of universe is this, and how far are they travelling? Regardless of how improbable it was, I just adored River’s fighting, especially the circular backbend swoopy thing where she slashed all the Reavers up. Yes, it wouldn’t really happen that way, but hey, it’s a movie, and Summer Glau is so graceful, it was just fun to watch her. Was I the only one thinking during the opening sequence, “Go find the busy bee! Find it!!!” It was nice to see Sarah Paulson (a/k/a Miss Isringhausen). I think I was the only one in our theater to notice that River was brandishing a big-ass can when Jayne came to get her. Everyone else was caught up and tense, and I just started laughing. I, too loved the “Am . . . I talking to Miranda?” response. Once again, Joss thumbing his nose at fictional conventions. Oh, I just can’t wait to see this again. And I’ll make sure to give a quick Kaylee primer to any newbie I send to see it! ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/74 "2005-10-01T15:54:17Z")
> [@Mrs. carnivorousplant](#): > > Zoe was the closest thing to a fully realized woman and now she is not. What does that say about Whedon’s view of women? What does it say about your view of women that a woman can’t be fully realized without a husband? And how does Inara’s occupation make her less of a realistic woman? …But I see **WhyNot** has covered all this. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/75 "2005-10-01T16:26:07Z")
I think I only just realized that River was never actually on Miranda. It was entirely pieced together from her readings of the ‘key MPs’. For some reason I thought she had been there, but I suppose she couldn’t have been. Regarding the Chinese question, I was just wondering if there’d been some explanation, but I’m fine with it as it is. I see no problem if in 2525 _Anno Domini_ there’s some various old bits of culture, _exempli gratia_ bits of an antique language thrown around, architechture, _et cetera_. I might even prefer it without explanation. I put my other question in [its own thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6641502). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/76 "2005-10-01T16:54:07Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > I see no problem if in 2525 _Anno Domini_ there’s some various old bits of culture, _exempli gratia_ bits of an antique language thrown around, architechture, _et cetera_. I might even prefer it without explanation. Everything’s cool, if man is still alive and if woman can survive. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/77 "2005-10-01T17:37:28Z")
With respect to The Operative’s change of heart, I don’t see any reason to think that if he felt the goal worth it, that there’s any difference between wiping out hundreds or wiping out millions. He already knows the government is corrupt – it’s using him, isn’t it? He proclaims himself as evil. But he feels it’s acceptable in the service of creating a perfect world. It is the corruption of his goal that changes his mind. No doubt the magnitude of the ‘failed experiment’ plays a part in his decision. But in the end, he also recognizes his own humanity – he really isn’t pure evil and can understand that he can get away from his slavery to the false ideal. Possibly Mal recognizes this and doesn’t kill him in the end, though there is a bit of mutual respect after the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/78 "2005-10-01T17:37:55Z")
> [@FordPrefect](#): > > In other news… My mood was really affected by the lighting. I had to do some grocery shopping after and I felt somewhat like River after she had been triggered, I was ready to start some imminent violence. I have not felt that “bothered” by a movie before. It could have been the fact that my kids were in a mood, but Mrs. Prefect and I both were affected. Did that happen to anyone else? It happens to me, too. I came out of the theater feeling pretty unsettled, but I’ve been attributing it to Wash and Book dying among a couple other things, such as Mal being a complete _dickhead_. It should be noted that apparently the Fox execs wanted more humor and a lighter, wise-cracking captain. That’s about the only decision of theirs I agreed with, mainly because I value humor pretty highly. It’s as though Joss, finally free of his Fox leash, went overboard in going back to his original concept of a hardass captain. Yeah, there was still some humor, particularly with Inara, but he was far, far harsher to Simon and River than he’d ever been in the series. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/79 "2005-10-01T18:06:49Z")
> [@BayleDomon](#): > > It should be noted that apparently the Fox execs wanted more humor and a lighter, wise-cracking captain. That’s about the only decision of theirs I agreed with, mainly because I value humor pretty highly. It’s as though Joss, finally free of his Fox leash, went overboard in going back to his original concept of a hardass captain. Yeah, there was still some humor, particularly with Inara, but he was far, far harsher to Simon and River than he’d ever been in the series. Re: Mal, I think he was a pretty similar character to who he was in the series for the first half of the movie. He was harsh with Simon in particular, but that’s in large part because Simon was sort of being an overprotective ass towards Mal. Even then, he protects River (and Simon by extension) first and asks questions later. Once Book dies, Mal kicks everything up (or down, depending on how you look at it) a notch. Until that point he was just doing normal-Mal-things, handling the situations as they came, keeping everyone afloat… and when the Operative crossed that line, Mal went all dark captain-y. For understandable reasons. Then he’s sort of back to how he was at the end; in particular, look at what little we get of Mal and Inara, and the difference in Mal’s attitude each time he talks with her. Happy and protective, pissed off and confused, happy and seemingly content, with the mode shifts corresponding to the state of mind Mal is in with regard to everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011/80 "2005-10-01T18:31:06Z")
Thought I’d check in and say I thought it was great, as well. Haven’t read the whole thread yet, so I gotta catch up. Meanwhile: > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > “you put a psychic in the same room with key members of parliament?” (Though I’m somewhat confused by what Bootsy Collins and George Clinton could have had to do with Reavers). I gotta admit, this had me laughing out loud. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serenity-open-spoilers-a-plenty-youve-been-warned/324011.md?page=5)