# Serial Killers In Ancient History? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 25, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993 "2011-03-25T18:32:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/21 "2011-03-26T17:35:50Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I’m curious about what a serial killer’s motivation is. It’s sort of off topic, I know, but when you say frustrated…is it like, most serial killers just have this urge to kill and they feel anxious when they can’t, like someone with a scary killing version of OCD? Or is it more like a hobby–man, I’d really like to be out murdering, the way most of us think we’d rather be golfing (or reading or playing D&D)? There are a number of different motivations. For some it’s a perfect storm of a high degree of psychopathy combined with an extremely virulent paraphilia, particularly sexual sadism (sometimes comorbid with necrophilia), as appeared to be the case with Ted Bundy and Dennis Rader. Others may be highly psychopathic but have financial gain as a motive rather than sexual deviance, e.g. [Charles Sobhraj](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Sobhraj). Others may be severely psychotic like [Richard Chase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Chase). In some cases we can only guess at their motives. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/22 "2011-03-26T18:30:37Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > I was looking through some 14th century English coroner’s rolls recently, and running across a number of bizarre cases, some of which might be perpetrated by what we’d define now as serial killers. > > Home invasions, followed by maiming and murdering of residents, crop up numerous times. Also plenty of people just plain turned up dead in odd circumstances that might have been accidental or suicide, but could’ve been foul play. A common crime back before the average Joe used banks - there would be rumors that someone, usually an older person, was a miser and had a secret stash of money hidden in the house. Like most good stories in small towns, it was probably more in the tellers’ imaginations. However, occasionally some thief or group of thieves would decide the story was real and decide to help themselves to the loot. After breaking in, they would torture the person to reveal the location of the money. Since sadistic tendencies are not unusual in bullies, they would probably go too far trying to get the (usually non-existent) money. Can you count sadism in commission of robbery as a serial-killer crime? Generally we think of serial killers as people who kill for no other good reason other than it gets them off. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/23 "2011-03-26T21:07:23Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Why, are you disputing it? I’ll dispute that. Some hunter gatherer groups are extremely war-like and some are peaceful. We can look at the Amazon as a modern-day example, where many hunter-gatherer groups still exist. Some, like the Yanomano, spend all of their time plotting how to kill other groups of Yanomamo. Others, like the Piraha, would never dream of harming another human being. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/24 "2011-03-27T04:34:58Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > I’ll dispute that. Some hunter gatherer groups are extremely war-like and some are peaceful. We can look at the Amazon as a modern-day example, where many hunter-gatherer groups still exist. Some, like the Yanomano, spend all of their time plotting how to kill other groups of Yanomamo. Others, like the Piraha, would never dream of harming another human being. One commentary I read about the age of exploration: generally, the Europeans exploring new areas of the world were originally treated with politeness and kindness (until they used their classic white man’s charm to piss off the locals). The logic was that a tribe may see their neighbours as rivals for the resources they need to live, but a small group of travellers that show no sign staying and every sign of just continuing on their way were a welcome novelty and no threat. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/25 "2011-03-27T06:54:03Z")
Here’s a few examples of the sort of murders or unsolved deaths I mentioned before, from the English Coroner’s Rolls. It happened that Alice Charles of Maldon was found dead in Maldon […] in the forty-fifth year of Edward III… a certain Catherine Ronges of Messing, who was insane, met Alice at the heath of the aforesaid village [Maldon] and struck her on the head with great tiles and with sea-coal, and afterwards threw her into the sea, and thus she came to her death. From browsing through these records, several things stand out: – The king’s highways seem to have been riddled with robbers, as lots of people are attacked and killed while traveling along them. – A disturbing number of children were found drowned. Lots of examples of small children falling into wells, rivers, or even pans of milk and drowning. – Actually drowning killed a lot of adults too, usually while bathing or swimming. – Another common cause of death: Quarreling followed by knife fighting. – One sad case is that of a man who beat his wife, who’s cries drew her brother. Her brother killed her husband, and both he and his sister were arrested. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/26 "2011-03-27T22:00:53Z")
That’s quite fascinating and disturbing, **Mississippienne**. One question … > [@Mississippienne](#): > > It happened that Alice Charles of Maldon was found dead in Maldon […] in the forty-fifth year of Edward III… a certain Catherine Ronges of Messing, who was insane, met Alice at the heath of the aforesaid village [Maldon] and **struck her on the head with great tiles and with sea-coal** , and afterwards threw her into the sea, and thus she came to her death. (Bolding mine) What did the coroner mean by “great tiles” and “sea-coal”? Anybody know? Are we talking about things like the tiles they use to put on modern kitchen floors and the like, or something else? ETA: And where were you able to find these 14th-century coroner records? Are they available online? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/27 "2011-03-28T14:43:29Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > …From browsing through these records, several things stand out: > > – The king’s highways seem to have been riddled with robbers, as lots of people are attacked and killed while traveling along them. Sounds like material for a poem… How bad? Read the opening of “A Tale of Two Cities”. It was the worst of times… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/28 "2011-03-29T13:56:05Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > What did the coroner mean by “great tiles” and “sea-coal”? Anybody know? Tiles I don’t know, but “sea-coal” is what we now know as coal (contrasted with “Char-coal” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/29 "2011-03-29T14:23:31Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > What did the coroner mean by “great tiles” and “sea-coal”? Anybody know? Are we talking about things like the tiles they use to put on modern kitchen floors and the like, or something else? “Tiles” can just mean flat stones suitable for use in paving or floors, like shale or slate. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/30 "2011-03-29T15:59:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Tiles I don’t know, but “sea-coal” is what we now know as coal (contrasted with “Char-coal” Well, it sort of depends – it’s meant different things depending on where or when you were. Around here it would be specifically coal from a beach – either washed up after being eroded from an exposed coal seam, or part of the waste from a mine. If times were hard, a modest living could be made gathering and selling sea-coal, right up to the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993/31 "2011-03-29T16:20:57Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > From browsing through these records, several things stand out: > > – The king’s highways seem to have been riddled with robbers, as lots of people are attacked and killed while traveling along them. > – A disturbing number of children were found drowned. Lots of examples of small children falling into wells, rivers, or even pans of milk and drowning. > – Actually drowning killed a lot of adults too, usually while bathing or swimming. > – Another common cause of death: Quarreling followed by knife fighting. > – One sad case is that of a man who beat his wife, who’s cries drew her brother. Her brother killed her husband, and both he and his sister were arrested. OT, I know, but I’m curious: what exactly do you mean by “lots”? Do you mean that a high proportion of travellers are falling prey to bandits, or that highway robbery seems more common than other forms of theft? Does death by drowning seem unexpectedly common, or is it simply that, in a pre-industrial society, there are fewer alternative means of accidental death that might be reported to a coroner’s court? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-killers-in-ancient-history/575993.md?page=1)