# Serial (the podcast) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 4, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417 "2014-10-04T23:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/241 "2014-12-08T02:12:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Actually, yes, it does. It’s absolutely routine. What kind of evidence do you expect? Researchers don’t publish studies showing that people put their shoes on after their socks. If there is no research on the matter, then you can’t makes can’t make those claims with any confidence. Your anecdotal evidence holds little sway. > [@Acsenray](#): > > And you have not only my word for it, you also have Sarah Koenig’s word for it. She said something pretty close to what I did. Why would her anecdotal testimony be more meaningful? > [@Acsenray](#): > > Why do you think the Baltimore police are no longer allowed to stop recording in situations like this? Cops in general must record the entire interrogation from beginning to end without stop. The issue was not stopping recordings to smooth testimony, but rather doing it beforehand intentionally or unintentionally. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > That just sounds like so much garbage now, especially after this episode. It seems that Gutierrez didn’t follow up on the Asia alibi because at this point in her career, there was a lot of things she didn’t do for a lot of her clients. Maybe, but Asia is a terrible and unreliable witness. Perhaps she didn’t think it was worth pursuing. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Then again, maybe he just is that nice, and always sees the good in people. I guess if he wasn’t convicted of murder, I’d simply want to hug him and squeeze him and name him George. A few people who know his disagree. > [@Lamia](#): > > Well, any way of presenting the information is going to involve some artificial construct. Yes, but I think the main issue is that we hear from Adnan but not his detractors, and that we are judging a present day Adnan against the tapes of kids 15 years ago. It’s not really a fair comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/242 "2014-12-08T04:40:54Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > If there is no research on the matter, then you can’t makes can’t make those claims with any confidence. That’s a fundamentally stupid position to take. Of course I can make those claims with confidence, based on what I’ve seen with my own eyes and what I know from colleagues in my profession. > [@](#): > > Your anecdotal evidence holds little sway. You might choose to disbelieve me, but that is irrelevant to whether I can have confidence in my own knowledge. > [@](#): > > Why would her anecdotal testimony be more meaningful? Do you never give any degree of credence to any claim of fact by anyone that is not supported by clinical research? ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/243 "2014-12-08T14:58:36Z")
I still can’t believe that Adnan doesn’t know more than he is saying. It just seems impossible to me. I can believe he didn’t physically do the ‘thing’ (as Koenig is fond of say 🙂 ), but that he is completely clueless about everything? That he doesn’t know why Jay would set him up? We know Jay has details that tie him to the murder 100% (he was involved in some way) and we know he spent a significant amount of time with Adnan on the night she disappeared. So for Adnan’s story to be true, then stoner Jay must be some pretty cold criminal to have set up Adnan in advance like this (and forget even thinking about a reason for that)… One thing that annoys me a bit about Koenig is that she starts off reminding us how these kids can’t be expected to remember what they were doing on these crucial dates, so don’t take that as meaning anything. So whenever Adnan can’t remember something or misremembers something, it is innocent and because of that. But when anyone else gets any details wrong or misremembers something, it must be because they are trying to mislead. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/244 "2014-12-08T16:00:42Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > I still can’t believe that Adnan doesn’t know more than he is saying. > > It just seems impossible to me. I can believe he didn’t physically do the ‘thing’ (as Koenig is fond of say 🙂 ), but that he is completely clueless about everything? That he doesn’t know why Jay would set him up? > > We know Jay has details that tie him to the murder 100% (he was involved in some way) and we know he spent a significant amount of time with Adnan on the night she disappeared. > > So for Adnan’s story to be true, then stoner Jay must be some pretty cold criminal to have set up Adnan in advance like this (and forget even thinking about a reason for that)… > One thing that annoys me a bit about Koenig is that she starts off reminding us how these kids can’t be expected to remember what they were doing on these crucial dates, so don’t take that as meaning anything. So whenever Adnan can’t remember something or misremembers something, it is innocent and because of that. But when anyone else gets any details wrong or misremembers something, it must be because they are trying to mislead. I agree that It feels like Adnan knows more than he’s saying, but I think the reason he wouldn’t say what that is, is because it would implicate him. As for Sarah Koenig, she’s definitely reached the point where she’s a little smitten with the whole story, and has lost the sense of journalistic impartiality, if she ever had it. Then again, This American Life has always walked a line of claiming to be journalism, but a form of journalism that invokes fictional narrative techniques…which to me isn’t necessarily journalism to begin with. Finally, I agree that some of her arguments are a little biased toward Adnan. One example is the false dichotomy that for him to be lying to Sarah, he must be a sociopath. The reality is he might just be a kid who did something really dumb, but who is also a polished liar, especially after that many years in prison. That doesn’t require sociopathy, that requires believing your own bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/245 "2014-12-08T16:52:57Z")
I don’t really get the whole “it’s vanishingly unlikely that he’s a sociopath” argument, either. Sociopathy/Antisocial Personality Disorder isn’t really all that rare, is it? That one woman she interviewed said she just couldn’t be that lucky, and presumably she knows more about it than I do, but [Wiki says](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)the incidence in prison populations is 47%, so it doesn’t seem too unlikely to me. What does seem clear is that his lawyer really dropped the ball. None the less, I still think he did it. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/246 "2014-12-08T19:00:36Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > One thing that annoys me a bit about Koenig is that she starts off reminding us how these kids can’t be expected to remember what they were doing on these crucial dates, so don’t take that as meaning anything. So whenever Adnan can’t remember something or misremembers something, it is innocent and because of that. But when anyone else gets any details wrong or misremembers something, it must be because they are trying to mislead. I haven’t picked up on that at all. Can you give an example of who, according to Koenig, is trying to mislead? ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/247 "2014-12-08T19:03:19Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > As for Sarah Koenig, she’s definitely reached the point where she’s a little smitten with the whole story, and has lost the sense of journalistic impartiality, if she ever had it. Then again, This American Life has always walked a line of claiming to be journalism, but a form of journalism that invokes fictional narrative techniques…which to me isn’t necessarily journalism to begin with. I agree, though I don’t necessarily fault her for it. As you say, this is more “story telling” than journalism. One thing I really hope to see in one way or another after the final episode is Koenig stepping out of the narrator POV mode and reflecting on the whole concept of _Serial_ and her role in the story. Preferably we’d see her interviewed by someone not involved in the production of the show. I know she’s done some interviews, but I’ve been avoiding most online discussion of the show (SDMB excepted) for fear of encountering spoilers. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/248 "2014-12-08T19:27:40Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > I haven’t picked up on that at all. Can you give an example of who, according to Koenig, is trying to mislead? Jen and Jay. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/249 "2014-12-08T19:39:59Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > Jen and Jay. Well in Jay’s case, he’s on record at telling contradictory stories so I’m fine with her pointing that out. I don’t recall her saying that Jen is trying to mislead anybody - though just in listening to her it clearly sounded to me like somebody who was trying to keep made-up story straight. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/250 "2014-12-08T20:19:29Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > I agree, though I don’t necessarily fault her for it. As you say, this is more “story telling” than journalism. Though to be honest, I wonder if the entire exercise (partially) may be a meta-narrative on journalism. If there anything really apart from story telling in trying to ‘report’ something. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/251 "2014-12-09T02:22:03Z")
[QUOTE=Renee] I don’t really get the whole “it’s vanishingly unlikely that he’s a sociopath” argument, either. Sociopathy/Antisocial Personality Disorder isn’t really all that rare, is it? That one woman she interviewed said she just couldn’t be that lucky, and presumably she knows more about it than I do, but Wiki says the incidence in prison populations is 47%, so it doesn’t seem too unlikely to me. [/QUOTE] What is vanishingly rare is the type of sociopath who has absolutely no early markers of trouble, then suddenly commits one extremely violent crime, and then goes straight to being a model prisoner with not a single trace of trouble in fifteen years. The cool, extremely intelligent chessmaster sociopath is more myth than reality. Most 17-year old sociopaths are violent criminals or petty thieves and con-artists, not good students in magnet programs. Friends and relatives of sociopaths are generally _not_ surprised by a murder conviction, contrary to popular belief. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/252 "2014-12-09T22:42:43Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Maybe, but Asia is a terrible and unreliable witness. Perhaps she didn’t think it was worth pursuing. How is she more “terrible” or unreliable than Jay? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/253 "2014-12-11T02:31:01Z")
More to the point, Gutierrez couldn’t have thought Asia was a a terrible and unreliable witness, since she never bothered to contact her. I put very little stock in the whole “you can hear it in his voice/reaction/etc., he’s lying” game – that’s just prone to a ridiculous amount of confirmation bias, and people have been shown in studies to be very poor at spotting lies by reading the person. However, since we’re all playing that game already, I’ll mention that, on listening a second time, Jen’s taped statement in her police interview sounds very rehearsed and not genuine to my ears. That doesn’t necessarily mean she’s lying, of course; she could have carefully rehearsed the phrasing of her true story, or I could be seeing something that simply isn’t there. But, just on a gut level, it raises an eyebrow and makes me somewhat less inclined to think she’s being entirely truthful. :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/254 "2014-12-11T08:44:07Z")
Sarah Koenig was on _The Colbert Report_ last night discussing _Serial_. No new information for podcast listeners, but it’s nice to see it getting this kind of attention. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/255 "2014-12-11T15:22:52Z")
The end of episode 10 really hammered home the dilemma of the falsely accused. Maintain your innocence, and your shot at parole is drastically decreased. Or you can lie and ‘admit’ you did it and hope for the best. Whether Adnan did it or not, there have to be thousands of prisoners in that situation. Plus throw in the plea dilemma (truthfully defend yourself and risk life in prison or take the plea and serve a reduced sentence), and you can really see how the deck is stacked against the innocent. Especially those that have to worry about potential racist/bigoted judges and/or juries. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/256 "2014-12-11T17:59:49Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > Sarah Koenig was on _The Colbert Report_ last night discussing _Serial_. No new information for podcast listeners, but it’s nice to see it getting this kind of attention. She wouldn’t even tell us whether that woman learned to pronounce MailChimp! ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/257 "2014-12-11T22:41:01Z")
So apparently next week is the last episode. Probably that’s the right move. While I thoroughly enjoy each episode, if they’re at the point at which they’re reporting on anonymous rumors about what Adnan’s personality was like 15 years ago, the well is probably pretty dry. I guess it’s not realistic to hope that Koenig will provide something like a definitive resolution – probably that was too much to hope for even at the beginning. Still, I’m confident that the conclusion will be satisfying. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/258 "2014-12-11T22:52:21Z")
Wow. Ultra boring episode. Nothing to discuss. Bored me to tears. Time to end it. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/259 "2014-12-11T23:25:54Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Wow. Ultra boring episode. Nothing to discuss. Bored me to tears. Time to end it. Yeah. That was the only episode so far that I didn’t even want to listen to more than once. Just nothing in it. It sounds like Sarah feels the same way as Adnan about this story now, she just wants it to end. I guess this is going out with a whimper rather than a bang. With an episode titled “Rumors”, I was expecting to hear something about the threats that Adnan was supposed to have made against Stephanie, or some evidence that he might really have a dark side or a violent streak. But, no, instead we learn that he stole a little bit of money from the mosque in the 8th grade, and apart from he was always a really great guy. Heck, I did things like that in the 8th grade. Doesn’t make me a murderer, and it really isn’t even relevant to the case. I’m still hoping for something from the final episode, though. There are a couple of sound bytes from the intro that we still haven’t heard on the show. One where someone says “basically threatened me, what happened to Hae is what will happen to you, that’s how I felt that day”, and another one where Dana (I think) says “I’m thinking, could he have gone crazy?” to Sarah. I still want to know what that is all about. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417/260 "2014-12-12T02:02:44Z")
I enjoyed parts of the episode a lot - it’s really interesting to me how self-aware Adnan is, and how clear his language is about how he imagines Sarah and the rest of the world view him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serial-the-podcast/700417.md?page=14)