# Serious idea: survivors/families of mass shooting victims get same benefits and honors as veterans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873 "2018-02-15T15:02:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/41 "2018-02-15T19:12:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just like it’s illegal to shoot at your classmates even if you don’t actually harm anyone. > > How do we “look to prevent that in the future”? Is someone proposing a ban on alcohol, or cars? If not, aren’t they essentially shrugging their shoulders and saying "“Oh, what a tragedy, if only there was something we could do about it.”? “Well, banning all guns is totally out of the question-I guess there’s nothing we can do!” Can you think of absolutely _nothing_ that might slow down this slaughter? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/42 "2018-02-15T19:15:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just like it’s illegal to shoot at your classmates even if you don’t actually harm anyone. > > How do we “look to prevent that in the future”? Is someone proposing a ban on alcohol, or cars? If not, aren’t they essentially shrugging their shoulders and saying "“Oh, what a tragedy, if only there was something we could do about it.”? What do we do? We pull over drivers who appear to be drunk. We train bartenders to understand the signs of intoxication, and require them to cut off people that are too drunk, and hold them accountable if they serve someone too much alcohol and let them drive. We have lowered the legal limit of what is considered to be drunk driving. We have created ad campaigns that have made it socially unacceptable to drive drunk. We are doing something about it, and the stats back that up. We do not shrug our shoulders. We are not doing any of those things to reduce gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/43 "2018-02-15T19:19:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Well, banning all guns is totally out of the question-I guess there’s nothing we can do!” Can you think of absolutely _nothing_ that might slow down this slaughter? If you have some proposals you think will help, particularly if it’s something besides banning guns, feel free to offer it up and we can discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/44 "2018-02-15T19:19:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As euphemisms go, that one is tone-deaf as all hell. :rolleyes: No more so than saying “sorry your son died in a car crash, but that is the price we pay for letting people drive 70mph/not sentencing drunk drivers to LWOP/not sending first-time felons to prison for eighty years apiece.” > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Huh, a soldier can get a purple heart for getting hit by an IED. What amendment protects the use of IEDs? There isn’t any. Just like there isn’t any amendment that protects the right of people to shoot up schools. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I don’t see any false equivalencies. > > Try reading. I did that, and the only false equivalencies I spotted was some suggestions that the Constitution protected illegal activity. > [@](#): > > Because we can have a discussion about what the best methods of dealing with the criminal justice system in order to decrease crime, we can have discussions about traffic safety, and require people to have licenses to drive, and require car manufacturers to make cars safer. > > We can’t have a discussion about how to lower gun violence. Are you really incapable of seeing the difference? I thought discussion on what to do about gun violence was what was happening in this thread. Were you talking about something else? It was suggested in the OP that we should pay money to the victims of mass shootings, because the victims were paying the price for the Second Amendment. What I and others are asking is why those who pay a similar price for other amendments, and the negative consequences of the decision to do things one way and not another should not also be paid. So no, I don’t see any difference. That might also be a result of my reading. YMMV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/45 "2018-02-15T19:21:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What do we do? We pull over drivers who appear to be drunk. We train bartenders to understand the signs of intoxication, and require them to cut off people that are too drunk, and hold them accountable if they serve someone too much alcohol and let them drive. We have lowered the legal limit of what is considered to be drunk driving. We have created ad campaigns that have made it socially unacceptable to drive drunk. > > We are doing something about it, and the stats back that up. We do not shrug our shoulders. > > We are not doing any of those things to reduce gun violence. Gun vioence has by-and-large declined over the last several decades. I guess what we’re doing about that is working too? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/46 "2018-02-15T19:23:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What do we do? We pull over drivers who appear to be drunk. We train bartenders to understand the signs of intoxication, and require them to cut off people that are too drunk, and hold them accountable if they serve someone too much alcohol and let them drive. We have lowered the legal limit of what is considered to be drunk driving. We have created ad campaigns that have made it socially unacceptable to drive drunk. > > We are doing something about it, and the stats back that up. We do not shrug our shoulders. > > We are not doing any of those things to reduce gun violence. This isn’t really a gun debate per se, but we do things to attempt to reduce gun violence as well…and the stats back that up too. Gun violence has reduced substantially since the 80’s and 90’s, just like deaths due to drunk drivers has reduced. And, in the end, just by allowing alcohol to remain legal we accept, as a society, that over 30,000 citizens are going to die directly due to drunk drivers (many more due to secondary or tertiary effects…including alcohol-related to gun deaths). Doesn’t mean we can’t do more on both fronts, but saying we do nothing just makes any good points you might make dismissed since this is one that’s pretty easy to look up. You sound like Trump claiming…well, whatever bullshit and easily looked up ‘fact’ he’s claiming this week. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/47 "2018-02-15T19:30:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These families have sacrificed as much as those of military veterans (and I say that as a veteran myself). They should be entitled to the same sorts of benefits and honors. Especially since, as a country, we’re not doing a damn thing to stop these mass shootings. Victims of mass shootings have undergone a tragedy, however, veterans actually put themselves in danger (or were sacrificed for the ‘greater good’ by drafting them and then sending them into combat). It’s not the same thing. To even be a veteran you had to pass months of training and you didn’t just run away the moment you had a chance. (even draftees always had a choice - they could choose the safety of prison instead of risking death in combat) I know it seems callous to say this, but there is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/48 "2018-02-15T19:31:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you have some proposals you think will help, particularly if it’s something besides banning guns, feel free to offer it up and we can discuss it. I just asked _you_ if you could think of anything to help alleviate this problem short of the “GUN GRABBING!!” you don’t want. This game of “What about this plan?” “No-that won’t work” repeated ad nauseum has been done to death. This time _you_ make a proposal you actually think might work, and I promise to actually consider it on its merits. This time, it’s _your_ turn. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/49 "2018-02-15T19:32:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I just asked _you_ if you could think of anything to help alleviate this problem short of the “GUN GRABBING!!” you don’t want. This game of “What about this plan?” “No-that won’t work” repeated ad nauseum has been done to death. This time _you_ make a proposal you actually think might work, and I promise to actually consider it on its merits. > This time, it’s _your_ turn. Allow trained and qualified teachers to carry. This incident might have gone differently if the football coach had a gun of his own on his person. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/50 "2018-02-15T19:34:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Doesn’t mean we can’t do more on both fronts, but saying we do nothing just makes any good points you might make dismissed since this is one that’s pretty easy to look up. You sound like Trump claiming…well, whatever bullshit and easily looked up ‘fact’ he’s claiming this week. Can you tell me what we are doing to address gun violence? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/51 "2018-02-15T19:34:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Gun vioence has by-and-large declined over the last several decades. I guess what we’re doing about that is working too? But this thread isn’t about “Gun violence by-and-large”, is it? Let’s leave those goalposts right where they are for now, o.k.? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/52 "2018-02-15T19:35:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Can you tell me what we are doing to address gun violence? NICS Improvement Act, concealed-carry legislation, additional people trained and armed for self defense, etc (just off the top of my head) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/53 "2018-02-15T19:36:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But this thread isn’t about “Gun violence by-and-large”, is it? Let’s leave those goalposts right where they are for now, o.k.? “This thread” may not be, but the post I was responding to sure was. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/54 "2018-02-15T19:37:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Allow trained and qualified teachers to carry. This incident might have gone differently if the football coach had a gun of his own on his person. That might work if the coach actually wanted to carry on school grounds. Did he? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/55 "2018-02-15T19:38:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > you sound like Trump claiming…well, whatever bullshit and easily looked up ‘fact’ he’s claiming this week. Let’s tone this down, XT. This could be interpreted as an accusation of lying. Try not to personalize things, please. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/56 "2018-02-15T19:38:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It was suggested in the OP that we should pay money to the victims of mass shootings, because the victims were paying the price for the Second Amendment. This is not exactly what I’ve suggested. I don’t think mass shootings are “the price for the Second Amendment”, but rather the price for various policy decisions which are not required by the Second Amendment (in my understanding of arguments from folks like the late Justice Scalia) that make mass shootings particularly easy to accomplish, and deadlier than they might otherwise be, as well as (possibly) uniquely American cultural factors like a unique adoration for guns and gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/57 "2018-02-15T19:40:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > NICS Improvement Act, concealed-carry legislation, additional people trained and armed for self defense, etc (just off the top of my head) So, we passed a law that said that, yes, if people are prohibited from buying guns do to their mental state, that does in fact need to be reported. It’s a law that shouldn’t have needed to be passed. Your other examples are just putting more guns in public. Did this school shooter suffer from not being able to carry concealed? Was his problem that he was not well enough trained? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/58 "2018-02-15T19:40:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That might work if the coach actually wanted to carry on school grounds. Did he? I don’t know. I’d like those teachers that want to, and are trained and qualified, to have the opportunity to. It won’t prevent every school shooting, but just like having bartenders cut off drunks, it will probably help in some cases. Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/59 "2018-02-15T19:41:22Z")
At what point during this massacre did the coach encounter the alleged shooter? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873/60 "2018-02-15T19:41:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, we passed a law that said that, yes, if people are prohibited from buying guns do to their mental state, that does in fact need to be reported. It’s a law that shouldn’t have needed to be passed. > > Your other examples are just putting more guns in public. Did this school shooter suffer from not being able to carry concealed? Was his problem that he was not well enough trained? No, the football coach / security guard is the one that suffered by not being able to carry at school. His problem was that he was unarmed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-idea-survivors-families-of-mass-shooting-victims-get-same-benefits-and-honors-as-veterans/808873.md?page=4)