# Serious plane crash over southern Germany **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 2, 2002, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933 "2002-07-02T00:06:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/1 "2002-07-02T00:06:50Z")
Board ate OP. Here it is. Around midnight local time, a Boeing 757, believed to be a freighter, collided with a Tupolev (possibly a passenger plane :() near the Bodensee in Germany. Allegedy, the collision occured at 12 kilometers height. Seems near impossibe, yet it happened. Developing story here: [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07/01/plane.collision.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07/01/plane.collision.ap/index.html) Morbid as it may sound, I hope the other one’s a freighter too. Several houses on the ground are on fire, debris is scattered over a 30 by 40 km. area. My God. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/2 "2002-07-02T00:10:12Z")
Sad to see this happens to Mods, too. Here’s a link: [Planes collide over Lake Constance](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_2081000/2081001.stm) > [@](#): > > From BBC: > An airliner and a cargo plane have collided over Lake Constance on Germany’s border with Switzerland. > > Police in the German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg identified the planes as a Russian-made Tupolev 154 airliner and a Boeing 757 cargo plane belonging to DHL. > > The planes are reported to have gone down near the town of Sigmariegen, hitting a road by the lake. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/3 "2002-07-02T00:13:10Z")
Sad news. 80 people on the passanger plane. [BBC News Report](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_2081000/2081001.stm). ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/4 "2002-07-02T00:15:25Z")
Fuck. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/5 "2002-07-02T00:22:50Z")
I hate this stuff. And with a mid-air, there’s definitely a human screw-up involved. Here’s hoping there’s no ground casulties. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/6 "2002-07-02T00:22:50Z")
Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/7 "2002-07-02T00:31:39Z")
God. I only hope the initial impact and explosion ensured the people involved didn’t know what hit them. The concept of a conscious 12km fall is something I’d rather not think about. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/8 "2002-07-02T00:54:23Z")
TV Update: 50+ killed on the ground. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/9 "2002-07-02T00:58:32Z")
My goodness… Call me morbid, but the recent strikes of air traffic controllers in Europe better not have anything to do with this. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Rosebud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rosebud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rosebud)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/10 "2002-07-02T01:55:58Z")
My God, that’s horrible… 50 on the ground alone? God… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/11 "2002-07-02T01:58:41Z")
I still haven’t seen any confirmation about the 50+ on the ground. Let’s hope the TV’s got it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/12 "2002-07-02T02:10:10Z")
[This report](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/02/1023864724938.html) from the _Sydney Morning Herald_ gives two separate estimates: > [@](#): > > Up to 150 people were feared dead today after two airliners collided… and > [@](#): > > However other reports quoted regional police as saying there were only a total of 97 people on board the two aircraft - 95 aboard the Russian-made Tupolev and two aboard the cargo plane. I think the TV report I saw _was_ in error in that they were reading both estimates as correct, and assuming the difference was made up of victims on the ground. I hope that is the case, and that the lower figure is the actual one. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/13 "2002-07-02T02:47:47Z")
The recent update on [cnn.com](http://cnn.com) says at least 71 dead; 57 passengers and 12 crew on the Tu-154, and 2 crew on the Boeing cargo jet. Their timestamp on the article is 10:29 PM EDT (0229 GMT). No mention of anyone dead on the ground. > [@](#): > > Tanzer said the flaming wreckage came down in a forest near residential and industrial areas, and set several trees ablaze. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/14 "2002-07-02T03:17:27Z")
And CNN feels the need to throw this in: > [@](#): > > …some aviation officials contend the plane is unsafe due to a string of accidents over the past decade that have killed more than 600 people. Because most “safe” planes would survive a collision with a 757 at 35,000 feet. Right? ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/15 "2002-07-02T03:26:09Z")
How is it that two planes collide into each other at 36,000 feet, anyway? Don’t they see each other from a far enough distance to change course??? ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/16 "2002-07-02T03:40:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola \* > \*\*How is it that two planes collide into each other at 36,000 feet, anyway? > > Don’t they see each other from a far enough distance to change course??? \*\* It was night, for one. They should probably have collision avoidance gear, but it’s not clear whether either had this. The area where they were flying is sort of is fairly populated and probably gets a lot of air traffic. It’s also possible (not yet ruled out) that Swiss Air control directed the flights into the same spot. Many planes fly at about that altitude. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/17 "2002-07-02T07:19:48Z")
Sky News reported this morning that German ATC had repeatedly instructed the crew of the Tupolev to change altitude. The Russian flight crew did not apparently due to a lack of English skills. I think this says more about slipping standards in Russian regulations than about the aircraft in this incident. ---
**Author:** ![DemonSpawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@DemonSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonSpawn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/18 "2002-07-02T11:31:41Z")
No victims on the ground, apparently some houses were hit by debris but nobody was hurt. The bad news is that most of the passengers of the Tupolev were children on their way to holidays in Spain. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![kase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@kase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kase)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/19 "2002-07-02T12:19:14Z")
Russian teens. ☹ goddammit ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933/20 "2002-07-02T12:34:34Z")
☹ Horrible Report from radio indicate that the communication screw-up and delay in taking action by the Tu154 may have then been compounded by the 757’s CAS leading them to make an evasive maneouver that mirrored the last-minute moves of the Tu154 (as in, he dives to _his_ left, I dive to _my_ right, net effect = towards, instead of away from, each other). And yes, **SmackFu** , that was a sterling moment of bringing in unrelated data just because it came up when they searched their files for “Tu-154”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-plane-crash-over-southern-germany/116933.md?page=2)