# Serious question: Why not mandatory life sentences for murderers, rapists, and child predators? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2013, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260 "2013-06-18T09:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/21 "2013-06-18T18:30:52Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Once the death penalty is finally off the table, the anti-DP activists will take a long weekend, and on Monday start advocating for the elimination of the “inhumane” Life Without Parole sentencing. That’s actually exactly the problem we’re finding over here in the 21st century. I can barely move for smelly hippies waving their “FREE IAN BRADY” signs. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/22 "2013-06-18T18:46:31Z")
> [@Among\_Liberals](#): > > Ah, the slippery slope argument. The easiest to make! And he didn’t even make it successfully. OK, if the death penalty is eliminated, people could start protesting something else. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/23 "2013-06-18T20:14:10Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Once the death penalty is finally off the table, the anti-DP activists will take a long weekend, and on Monday start advocating for the elimination of the “inhumane” Life Without Parole sentencing. This has got to be one of the most poorly placed posts ever. It literally comes right after I ended a post with > [@me](#): > > I am opposed to the death penalty, but as far as I’m concerned by committing murder one has forfeited their right to live in a free society ever again. Their victim certainly is never going to be able to do that ever again. > [@Marley23](#): > > Because the OP is proposing that a lot more people get life sentences. As I said, the OP is knee-jerkish, but I still don’t see how sentences of life without parole would cause prisons to become much, much nastier places than they now are. This already exists as a sentencing option in most states, and is the only meaning of a life sentence in several states. I don’t see evidence that prisons in these states are more brutish than others. According to [here](http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/dpic-summary-meaning-life-long-prison-sentences-context), though the figures are for 2004: > [@](#): > > Of the lifers in prison, one in four (26.3%) is serving a sentence of life without parole, having increased from one in six (17.8%) in 1992. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/24 "2013-06-18T20:19:38Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > As I said, the OP is knee-jerkish, but I still don’t see how sentences of life without parole would cause prisons to become much, much nastier places than they now are. This already exists as a sentencing option in most states, and is the only meaning of a life sentence in several states. I may be making an assumption, but I think **Aspidistra** was talking about a big increase in the number of people in prison for life without the possibility of parole. Everybody knows some people are in prison for life without parole. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/25 "2013-06-18T20:59:15Z")
Sounds like the setup for _Escape from New York,_ and we all know how that turned out. I always wondered what Ernest Borgnine did… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/26 "2013-06-18T21:31:09Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Because the purpose of incarceration is (nominally, anyway) rehabilitation. Not revenge. I know of four purposes of incarceration: (1) Deterrence (Keep people from committing crimes because they don’t want to go to jail) (2) Protection of society (If dangerous criminals are locked up, they can’t do further harm) (3) Justice/punishment/revenge/whatever word you want to use (Our sense that criminals should be made to “pay” in some sense for the wrong that they have done) (4) Rehabilitation (Prisoners come out of prison less likely to commit crimes than when they went in) Of these, the rehabilitation is the one I’m most skeptical about actually happening, though I may be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/27 "2013-06-18T23:44:08Z")
The devil is in the details; facts matter. Do you think that a teen-aged defendant with a low IQ who murders an abusive adult deserves the same sentence as an adult who tortures and kills a child or vulnerable adult? How about a guy who has sex with a drunken date versus someone who assaults a woman at gunpoint? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/28 "2013-06-18T23:49:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because the OP is proposing that a lot more people get life sentences. Just as an example, in New York you can get a life sentence for murder or first-degree arson or the use of a chemical of biological weapon, and that’s it. I don’t think it’s common for rapists to get life sentences. And just to show what that might do statistically, there were 744 reported murders in New York State in 2010. There were 2,752 “forcible rapes.” So if you pretend all the murderers got life sentences (which I am sure is not the case) and then add in all the rapists you’re almost quadrupling the number of life sentences. And not all of those life sentences for murder are life without parole. New York still has twenty-five to life sentences as a sentencing option for even first degree murder [NYS Penal Law sentencing](http://edugen.wileyplus.com/edugen/student/mainfr.uni) The prisons wouldn’t necessarily be any nastier than they are now- but it would be more expensive to keep them from getting nastier. Because the loss of “good time” is a fairly significant deterrent to misbehavior while in prison and it would have to be replaced with something - whether it be keeping inmates in their cells for 23 hours a day and allowing them 1 hour in a their own individual fenced yard, or increasing the staffing. There’s a limited range of punishments available in prison - loss of packages, phone calls,correspondence and/or visits , loss of good time/eligibility for early release, and some variety of “locked in a cell 23 hours a day” are about all I can think of. Life without parole sentences take that middle option away. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/29 "2013-06-19T02:20:33Z")
Is there any evidence that handing out life sentences has worked so far? The US has some of the harshest prison sentences and some of the highest violent crime rates. Sweden has far more lenient sentences and far less violent crime. It isn’t cut and dried. You are confusing vengeance for social policy. Everyone feels vengeance, but it isn’t designed to make society safe. Making society safe requires a lot more complex ideas than that. Someone posted an article about how the removal of lead from the environment was behind much of the decline in crime. Stuff like that has no moral impact good or bad, but it seems to work. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/30 "2013-06-19T08:17:33Z")
I’d also be interested in knowing / seeing a comparison of length of sentence and deterrence effect by length of crime. I seem to remember that “deterrence effect” of different sentences is a combination of expectation of being caught, “benefit” of the crime and length of sentence - but that there was a severe drop-off after 5 years or so in terms of length of sentence. You’d also need to take into account the thought process of a murderer / violent rapist etc - can they really be thought of as “rational” in the traditional sense? Whereby the difference between say a 10 year and a life sentence makes a difference - or is even thought about in the first place? And then, of course, is life imprisonment for societies protection or for punishment? Or for both? This would make a difference - If it’s for “society protection” is life imprisonment the cheapest and best way to go? If it’s for punishment - isn’t the biblical “eye for an eye” a better option? Here in Singapore, you basically get two weeks jail for your second DUI - something that by most standards is harsh (and Singapore prisons are not a pleasant place), yet you still get a LOT of people that drink and drive. Why? Because the expectation of getting caught is very low. We also have a mandatory death sentence for murder - and the murder rate is relatively low, a good part of which I believe is because there’s no access to guns here. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/31 "2013-06-19T15:03:53Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Here in Singapore, you basically get two weeks jail for your second DUI - something that by most standards is harsh That doesn’t seem harsh to me. Here you can get up to 6 months for one conviction, and it seems quite reasonable in my opinion. I’m not sure what the real sentence is likely to be for an “average” drink driver, but I’d expect the full 6 months for a second conviction. Hopefully someone else can enlighten me on that. But what do you mean by “most standards”? I’m not challenging you, just interested in why you say that. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/32 "2013-06-19T15:48:16Z")
Mandatory sentences are stupid in the first place. Life Sentences for anything short of multiple murders are also extremely questionable in my book. Life Sentence for Rape? Be serious. Even if you could prove 100% without any doubt that the person committed the crime (false accusations and wrongful convictions being unacceptably high for this crime), this is not a crime worthy of a life sentence for a single offense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/33 "2013-06-19T15:57:28Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Is there any evidence that handing out life sentences has worked so far? The US has some of the harshest prison sentences and some of the highest violent crime rates. I think there’s some evidence that longer sentences are one of the reasons violent crime has decreased over the last few decades, yes. I’ll see if I can find a good cite. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/34 "2013-06-19T23:27:39Z")
My thoughts on this: 1. I doubt there’s many people in prison now for prostitution or a baggie of weed, and when you get into things like selling or transporting crack and heroin I don’t think those are victimless, since people get addicted to them, steal from innocent people to keep their habit up, etc. 2. I’m not sure why just dispensing with locking people up forever and executing them for rape was not cruel and unusual for the first 200 years of our country but suddenly became so during the soft on crime era. 3. The OP did specify **first** degree murder. To a great extent we’re already doing that, in a number of states their wouldn’t be any question about whether Jody Arias would leave prison in a box one way or another. 4. Geriatric prisoners is a big issue, but someone who is that old is probably going to be the responsibility of the government anyway, whether through Medicaid or the prison system. Maybe we could have secure nursing homes for someone who’s so pathetically ill that they aren’t going to escape and commit more crimes and so the victims don’t see them ever released. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/35 "2013-06-20T05:07:34Z")
> [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](#): > > In the case of rapists and pedophiles, their crimes are crimes of compulsion, and since modern medicine has a truly abysmal record of ameliorating those compulsions, it makes sense to keep rapists and child predators in jail for life as the risk of recidivism is simply so high. Of the several problems with your proposal, this one strikes me as the most significant. We don’t punish folks for crimes they haven’t committed and may never. We punish those crimes if and when they occur. What you’re proposing is what’s wrong with Guantanamo. It’s wrong there and it’s wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/36 "2013-06-20T05:12:05Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > That doesn’t seem harsh to me. Here you can get up to 6 months for one conviction, and it seems quite reasonable in my opinion. I’m not sure what the real sentence is likely to be for an “average” drink driver, but I’d expect the full 6 months for a second conviction. Hopefully someone else can enlighten me on that. But what do you mean by “most standards”? I’m not challenging you, just interested in why you say that. The “by most standards” was a sop to what I have read on this board, and also to what I have seen back home in New Zealand. By what I read here, people that are on multiple drink drive convictions in some places in the US just suffer a small fine and that’s about it. In New Zealand, I don’t really have a cite or a study or anything, but for a second offense I’d be expecting community service in the hundreds of hours, a significant fine and more. Here in Singapore, a business acquaintance got two weeks jail for a second offense - from what I understand the two instances were of the order of more than 20 years apart, and he was marginally over the limit. So in comparison I found that harsh. In the general sense - to my way of thinking, first time if you are just a bit over - heavy fine plus community service. Second offense (absent seriously mitigating factors) confiscation of car + possibility of jail if its particularly egregarious ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/37 "2013-06-20T06:15:01Z")
When Americans want other thrid world countries to evolve into liberal democracies with modern notions of justice they site commonly held beliefs among the majority of liberal democracies. Yet we are in the minority on preserving the death penalty and think the rest of the modern world needs to mind it’s own god damn business. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/38 "2013-06-20T08:14:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think there’s some evidence that longer sentences are one of the reasons violent crime has decreased over the last few decades, yes. I’ll see if I can find a good cite. I’d be interested to see that too, since violent crime has decreased over much of the developed world in the last couple decades, without on average becoming more draconian. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/39 "2013-06-20T09:00:54Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > When Americans want other thrid world countries to evolve into liberal democracies with modern notions of justice they site commonly held beliefs among the majority of liberal democracies. Yet we are in the minority on preserving the death penalty and think the rest of the modern world needs to mind it’s own god damn business. Maybe because the death penalty is a trivial issue compared to whether a country actually is a democracy or not? In addition while I oppose the death penalty in most cases, the fact is too many death penalty opponents are moralistic whiners who go against people’s natural sense of justice by implying the state’s diposing of a murderer is morally equivalent to the murderer taking an innocent’s life rather than sensible nuts and bolts arguments regarding relative costs of executing a man versus imprisoning him for life (how many know that the latter is actually cheaper?) or the risk that an innocent man be executed? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260/40 "2013-06-20T09:32:06Z")
I’d rather see them reformed than incarcerated permanently. Murder is way worse than rape, so they shouldn’t have equivalent sentences. Generally any sentence longer than 20 years is pointless. There also needs to be wiggle room both in terms of the type of murder, and in giving the DA the ability to seek a plea. And finally, a lot of crimes stem from societal inequities, if we focus on those rather than expending a lot of effort and money after the fact, a lot of the crimes will disappear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-question-why-not-mandatory-life-sentences-for-murderers-rapists-and-child-predators/661260.md?page=3)