# Serious Questions About the Collapse of Civilization **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 2, 2024, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512 "2024-01-02T19:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/81 "2024-01-13T20:30:13Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > I don’t think it’s a question of humans going extinct, but rather of modern civilizations collapsing world wide. The Holocene extinction (aka Anthropocene extinction), could _potentially_ cause humans to go extinct, depending on the severity and extent of the biodiversity loss and ecological consequences. The current rate of extinction of species is 100 to 1,000 times higher than natural extinction rates. Our fate is in our hands. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2024, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/82 "2024-01-13T20:38:07Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Billionaires, on the other hand are worth billions because they think ahead and plan for all manner of contingencies. Or because they start (and retain lots of stock in) a company that becomes really popular. Which doesn’t require what you describe. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2024, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/83 "2024-01-13T21:03:54Z")
There are [Amish](https://amishamerica.com/11-midwestern-states-with-an-amish-population/) and [Mennonite](http://thirdwaycafe.com/faq/which-states-and-provinces-have-the-most-mennonites/) communities in the Midwest and beyond; they’re certainly not confined to the East. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/84 "2024-01-13T21:37:09Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > could _potentially_ cause humans to go extinc Yes, it is easy to imagine lots of disaster scenarios which could cause human extinction. I don’t think climate change is one of them, but I could see it killing 98% of humans, or something like that. Humans are very adaptable, and even without advanced technology can move large distances reasonably quickly (seasonal migration), survive in many climates (modify our local environment), and eat lots of things. As long as the remaining humans are in groups that are large enough to maintain and increase their populations, humans are likely to survive. A pathogen (natural or artificial) that is 100% lethal and has an R0 of 20 or whatever might wipe us out. A 100 year nuclear winter (or equivalent) could do us in, too. Raising the temperature of the whole planet above a wet bulb temperature we can survive, would also do it. I think a big shuffling of coastlines, temperate zones, rainy areas, and deserts will kill lots, possibly even most, people, but won’t eliminate us. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2024, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/85 "2024-01-13T21:48:00Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > There are [Amish](https://amishamerica.com/11-midwestern-states-with-an-amish-population/) and [Mennonite](http://thirdwaycafe.com/faq/which-states-and-provinces-have-the-most-mennonites/) communities in the Midwest and beyond; they’re certainly not confined to the East. Glad to hear it. Although no two maps on the internet agree on the distribution of targets and fallout in a nuclear attack on the USA, this one is half-way recent and as plausible as any. In general it suggests that the concentration of government/ military/ strategic/ infrastructure and population center targets in the East would make survival there outside of a well-prepared shelter problematic: [![](https://modernsurvivalblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/effects-of-full-scale-nuclear-exchange-on-united-states.jpg) ](https://modernsurvivalblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/effects-of-full-scale-nuclear-exchange-on-united-states.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/86 "2024-01-13T22:19:45Z")
I don’t think much of the realiablity of the target map in your post for the state of Washington. It seems to show Lewis-McChord Air force base as the only military target. Ignoring the naval nuclear submarine base in Bangor, Wa. The only Trident nuclear submarine base for the Pacific fleet. And you can be sure that there are a lot of weapons also stored there. The entire Puget Sound area around Seattle would be hit many times. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/87 "2024-01-14T12:24:02Z")
Cool map. Looks like I’d be ok. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/88 "2024-01-14T12:26:36Z")
I’ll live! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/89 "2024-01-14T15:21:34Z")
Clearly, I’d fry, hopefully instantly, which is okay by me since I’m old and wouldn’t do well in a post-apocalyptic world. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/90 "2024-01-16T00:13:21Z")
If the Amish survive, it will be because they have spent some hundreds of years as cohesive, self-sufficient communities. Not because they know how to grow their own food (although that will be very useful). The practical skills the Amish have can be easily taught, and many other individuals have them as well. What the Amish have that the (Quotes of Irony) modern world (/Quotes of Irony) lacks is a communal society built upon a binding foundation of faith, which holds as a central tenet that all will be cared for, and what is necessary to live will be provided by the community, not the World. It is obvious to me that if humans survive, it will because of communities like this. Civilization can collapse without nuclear war. In fact I believe it will. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/91 "2024-01-18T21:18:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I wonder if people like the Amish or Mennonites would do better in the aftermath of a collapse of civilization. They’re still dependent on manufactured goods, like shovels and plows but may be more familiar with using horse and oxen for farm work. Shovels and plows, properly taken care of, can last a hell of a long time. And Old Order communities have blacksmiths. The Amish use horses, maybe sometimes oxen; the Old Order Mennonites use tractors. However, the Mennonites all have horses, as they use horses and buggies; and they’ve got lots of hand tools and lots of hands to use them. They’re not used to managing their crop fields that way, only the kitchen gardens, and a buggy horse isn’t usually a good fieldwork horse; but they wouldn’t panic; they’d say “it must be God’s will”, and they’d figure it out. And they do inded have seed as well as knowledge and labor; and a strong sense of community that IME for most of them will extend to their neighbors, especially the ones who are willing to extend it back. I’m surrounded mostly by Old Order Mennonites, and this county I’m sure is a net food exporter – and of a wide variety of foods, not just field corn and dry beans. And we’re quite a ways inland and uphill from the coasts; and while it’s true that those nuclear dots are all over the eastern half of the country, we’re in one of the thinnest spots and that map says “minimal fallout”. Though of course somebody could miss where they’re aiming for and hit us. So so far, so good. On the other hand – there are significant cities not so far from here that people couldn’t get here before the food ran out. Some of them would be willing to pitch in and help, but few of them would know how, and some of them would be just plain nasty. So once the cities start starving (which indeed wouldn’t take long if the trade routes stopped working) we’d probably be in a good bit of trouble. – the non-Mennonite people here almost certainly average more guns per head, but the city people have a lot more heads. The Mennonites have hunting rifles, but they won’t use them for defense against humans. Or, at least, aren’t supposed to. And while I wouldn’t keel over immediately if I couldn’t get my meds, I suspect the currently early-stage diabetes might get me sooner, and less pleasantly, than the pacemaker battery giving out. And certainly the Senior Cat wouldn’t be able to keep getting his thyroid meds. In fact, if there’s a human within reach who needs them and I knew about it, I’d probably have to give whatever stock I had away. Not, if I can help it, to that guy who thinks the bunker’s going to save them, though. They should have thought to stock their pharmacy. I have some hope of a more gentle letdown. ---
**Author:** ![Cityyewtree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cityyewtree/32/15992_2.png) [@Cityyewtree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cityyewtree)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/92 "2024-01-18T22:32:44Z")
I learnt the lack of correlation as you mentioned the hard way during my school years on more than one occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/93 "2024-01-19T00:36:05Z")
My experience is that religious people vary in their practical morality as much as anyone else. But we are not “scumbags”, thanks very much. Perhaps you imagine everyone on this board has the same view of religion as you do, but you’d be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/94 "2024-01-19T00:59:34Z")
My experience has been that religion and morality don’t correlate at all – neither positively nor negatively. You can’t tell whether someone is moral by whether they’re religious, or by whether they’re not religious. Atheist here (for most definitions of God, anyway. Agnostic for the others.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/95 "2024-01-19T11:15:34Z")
I was saying that being “highly” religious correlate heavily with scumbaggery. You never see “normally” religious people in the news. I’m sure some are good people;) ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/96 "2024-01-19T12:12:30Z")
> [@cjackson](#): > > - Whenever society collapses and money no longer means anything, what will happen to all the former billionaires hiding in their bunkers? > - Since money would have no value, what is to stop the security guards of the former rich from just eating them since they would no longer be getting paid anything worth a damn? You basically answered your own question here. When government collapses, money ceases to exist as a government-guaranteed claim on future production, that claim is now worth nothing without a government. Moreover in the billionaire-bunker scenario, there’s also no future production to lay claim to, you’re just consuming stored-up surplus production. So the only “money” that can be traded is a claim on those existing physical goods, and this kind of claim only has value if you have physical control of the goods. Ultimately, physical control of physical goods depends on possession of superior physical power. This is the real reason scrawny billionaires are pouring money into muscular military-grade AI robots, they’re having real conversations about how to use technology to solve this problem. That problem being: if you have nothing physical to offer your bodyguards, how do you prevent them from starving you in confinement until you’re hungry enough to give up the codes to the food vault, entering it and taking all the food, then putting you into frozen storage to be eaten later. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/97 "2024-01-19T14:30:07Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I was saying that being “highly” religious correlate heavily with scumbaggery. > You never see “normally” religious people in the news. You mean like the Dalai Lama? The Pope? For the millionth time, there is an extremist “Christian” white nationalism ascendent in the world today. It shares almost no beliefs or behaviors with most Christians, who may well consider themselves highly religious. Many atheists on this board refuse to acknowledge this so I have to repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat. But no one is listening. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/98 "2024-01-19T14:33:50Z")
The Pope that’s head of the paedophile-sheltering Catholic Church? _That_ Pope? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/99 "2024-01-19T14:36:22Z")
Man, I could see that set-up coming from a mile away… nice and straight over the plate for to take a swing at it 😅 But more seriously, “world leader”-tier global religious leaders are themselves not really what you’d call “normally religious people” either – still, it’s true that the bulk of average religious believers are, well, about as newsworthy as average civil servants or shopkeepers so we hardly hear of them. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512/100 "2024-01-19T14:42:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Pope that’s head of the paedophile-sheltering Catholic Church? _That_ Pope? He’s spent a lot of time fighting the bureaucracy which (like many other bureaucracies) is far more interested in protecting itself than those it has vowed to protect. The Pope is an individual, he is not the Holy Mother Church. He is virulently hated by the right wing within the church. I know this is too much nuance for many. But this has nothing to do with this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/serious-questions-about-the-collapse-of-civilization/995512.md?page=6)