# Seriously, Annie-Xmas, shut up about adoption and serial killers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652 "2011-05-12T14:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/41 "2011-05-12T17:29:01Z")
> [@MissTake](#): > > Really? It’s been made pretty clear in my family that I, the adopted bastard, is more favored than my sister, the natural born. I have _NEVER_ felt that I needed to do anything to gain their acceptance, their approval. I have _NEVER_ felt that I was a second-best compromise. Then consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Adopted children are at greater risk for depression and mental illness. > **[APA PsycNet](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1984-32713-001)** ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/42 "2011-05-12T17:32:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Seriously Sarahfeena, you’ve got some abandonment issues when any criticism of adoption upsets you. I suppose someone who grew up always knowing that to the people who cared for them, they were always a second-best compromise always has those feelings. The correlation between serial killers and adoption is established. Actual research into why this correlation occurs is always shouted down by the adoption industry and their supporters who can’t stand to have their lucrative social experiment actually examined. You have reading comprehension issues if you think this qualifies as “any criticism” of adoption. But then, we all know you are absolutely fucking crazy, so it’s no surprise. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/43 "2011-05-12T17:33:52Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > \*\* cough \*\* > > From [Fox news](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/26/georgia-lawmakers-anti-abortion-proposal-punish-women-miscarriages/), of all the liberal, left-wing, pro-choice sources available: > > "A Georgia state representative has reintroduced an anti-abortion bill that would make miscarriages a felony if the mother cannot prove there was no "human involvement… Anyone convicted would face the death penalty or life behind bars… Franklin has introduced the bill each session since 2002 … " > > [Bill text here](http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en-US/display.aspx?Legislation=31965). > > It ain’t a red herring if the people in power keep trying to legislate it. (Setting aside that whole “can’t prove a negative” of course.) Take some cough medicine. From your link: > [@](#): > > Franklin’s legislation does not clarify what defines human involvement or how this would be enforced. And I notice you cut off your quote right where it said (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > Franklin has introduced the bill each session since 2002 but it has never made it out of committee So, no, one loon with a bill that isn’t going anywhere and does not require all miscarriages to be investigated is not a refutation. I would say “nice try”, but it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/44 "2011-05-12T17:35:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Seriously Sarahfeena, you’ve got some abandonment issues when any criticism of adoption upsets you. I suppose someone who grew up always knowing that to the people who cared for them, they were always a second-best compromise always has those feelings. The correlation between serial killers and adoption is established. Actual research into why this correlation occurs is always shouted down by the adoption industry and their supporters who can’t stand to have their lucrative social experiment actually examined. You might be onto something there if a legitimate criticism of adoption upset me. But, see, it’s not the criticism of adoption. It’s the sweeping, false statements that bug me so darn much. I’m fine with the statement that correlation exists. That doesn’t upset me, except in the sense that it’s upsetting that there are social problems that need to be addressed, both within the adoption system and outside of it. I’m more than happy to address REAL problems with the adoption industry, but these false claims irritate me. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/45 "2011-05-12T17:38:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t read all the quotes. It was an issue of some extreme pro-choice argument. > > Well, let’s look at it this way: If abortion is outlawed, there will be more people (probably). The more people there are, the more serial killers there will be. Bingo! (Of course, the more people there are, the more Einsteins there will be, too, but let’s just focus on the serial killers.) What if one of them starts serial killing physics geniuses? Then we’re stuck on this rock forever. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/46 "2011-05-12T17:43:39Z")
Even if there is some correlation between adoption and serial killing (or depression or mental illness), there are a lot of factors to consider that point away from adoption itself being the causative factor. Looking over the list of adopted serial killers, many lists include killers placed in foster care along with the adoptees, and a certain number of children are going to end up in foster care as wards of the state due to early behavioral problems, impuse control problems, and juvenile deliquency consistent with later psychopathy. Children may also wind up in foster care due to early onset mental illness, or may suffer from later problems due to inheritable mental illness from the birth parent (e.g. schizophrenia), or due to abuse in the birth home. In these cases adoption or foster care is symptomatic, not causative. ---
**Author:** ![Lorski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Lorski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorski)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/47 "2011-05-12T17:43:42Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Then consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Adopted children are at greater risk for depression and mental illness. > > [APA PsycNet](http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/ccp/52/4/582/) Neither my niece nor my friend ever felt like they had to prove anything. Indeed, they felt slightly special since they were _specifically chosen_ to become a part of a family. They know they are loved and wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/48 "2011-05-12T17:45:59Z")
> [@Lorski](#): > > Neither my niece nor my friend ever felt like they had to prove anything. Indeed, they felt slightly special since they were _specifically chosen_ to become a part of a family. They know they are loved and wanted. You know what? It’s not even worth making these points to her, someone who would say such gratuitously cruel things. There are many adopted people who are perfectly well-adjusted and happy, and never felt like a second-best compromise. The fact that she doesn’t know that is her problem, not the adoption community’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/49 "2011-05-12T17:46:41Z")
> [@MissTake](#): > > Really? It’s been made pretty clear in my family that I, the adopted bastard, is more favored than my sister, the natural born. I have _NEVER_ felt that I needed to do anything to gain their acceptance, their approval. I have _NEVER_ felt that I was a second-best compromise. That’s just the serial killer talking. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/50 "2011-05-12T17:47:16Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > You might be onto something there if a legitimate criticism of adoption upset me. But, see, it’s not the criticism of adoption. It’s the sweeping, false statements that bug me so darn much. > > I’m fine with the statement that correlation exists. That doesn’t upset me, except in the sense that it’s upsetting that there are social problems that need to be addressed, both within the adoption system and outside of it. I’m more than happy to address REAL problems with the adoption industry, but these false claims irritate me. How is stating the obvious more serial killers were adopted than occurs in the general population a false claim? Experts are still arguing why. Adopted Child Syndrome is a subject of study. > **[Taylor & Francis - Fostering human progress through knowledge](https://taylorandfrancis.com)** > > Taylor & Francis publishes knowledge and specialty research spanning humanities, social sciences, science and technology, engineering, medicine and healthcare. The serial killer angle is only the most sensational aspect. It’s a perfectly valid rebuttal to the cries that abortion is depriving us of the next Mozart or Einstein. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/51 "2011-05-12T17:52:26Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > You know what? It’s not even worth making these points to her, someone who would say such gratuitously cruel things. There are many adopted people who are perfectly well-adjusted and happy, and never felt like a second-best compromise. The fact that she doesn’t know that is her problem, not the adoption community’s. And the adoption community completely ignoring, denying and destroying natural family and community bonds is all loving sunshine? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/52 "2011-05-12T17:54:45Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > How is stating the obvious more serial killers were adopted than occurs in the general population a false claim? Experts are still arguing why. Adopted Child Syndrome is a subject of study. > [Taylor & Francis - Fostering human progress through knowledge](http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a904835970) > The serial killer angle is only the most sensational aspect. It’s a perfectly valid rebuttal to the cries that abortion is depriving us of the next Mozart or Einstein. Annie said adoption _CAUSES people to become serial killers_. That is a false claim. AND she won’t even drop by this thread to try to defend it, because she knows she can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/53 "2011-05-12T17:56:17Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > And the adoption community completely ignoring, denying and destroying natural family and community bonds is all loving sunshine? Do you believe that all adoptions are forced? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/54 "2011-05-12T17:57:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do you believe that all adoptions are forced? Oh, don’t bother, **RNATB** , she’s not rational on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/55 "2011-05-12T17:59:14Z")
You leave me and my windmills alone, lady! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/56 "2011-05-12T18:00:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You leave me and my windmills alone, lady! Wonderful post/username combo there. But hey, everyone needs a hobby. Just put your toys away when you’re done playing with them. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/57 "2011-05-12T18:01:15Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Annie said adoption _CAUSES people to become serial killers_. That is a false claim. AND she won’t even drop by this thread to try to defend it, because she knows she can’t. It’s a claim made without overwhelming supporting evidence. In other words, it’s an opionion with some factual support very much like the assertion that adoption is always a wonderful positive experience. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/58 "2011-05-12T18:01:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You leave me and my windmills alone, lady! Go for it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/59 "2011-05-12T18:01:55Z")
Just for those people who haven’t yet realized that **ZPG Zealot** really is batshit insane… [QUOTE=wikipedia] Adopted child syndrome is a controversial term … has never achieved acceptance in the professional community … is not found in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual … David Kirschner, who coined the term, says that … the syndrome only applies to “a small clinical subgroup” … \*n a review of the literature, generally children adopted before the age of six-months fare no differently than children raised with their biological parents. Later problems that develop among children adopted from the child welfare system at an older age are usually associated with the effects of chronic early maltreatment in the caregiving relationship; abuse and neglect. [/QUOTE] [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adopted_child_syndrome) Or maybe the entire psychiatric profession is conspiring with the entire adoption community to torture children by removing them from abusive homes. ---
**Author:** ![MissTake](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misstake/32/3189_2.png) [@MissTake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissTake)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/60 "2011-05-12T18:02:00Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Even if there is some correlation between adoption and serial killing (or depression or mental illness), there are a lot of factors to consider that point away from adoption itself being the causative factor. Looking over the list of adopted serial killers, many lists include killers placed in foster care along with the adoptees, and a certain number of children are going to end up in foster care as wards of the state due to early behavioral problems, impuse control problems, and juvenile deliquency consistent with later psychopathy. Children may also wind up in foster care due to early onset mental illness, or may suffer from later problems due to inheritable mental illness from the birth parent (e.g. schizophrenia), or due to abuse in the birth home. In these cases adoption or foster care is symptomatic, not causative. I stepped away to [del]bury a body[/del] take a shower, and was thinking about what ZPG had typed - and you essentially said it for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652.md?page=4)