# Seriously, Annie-Xmas, shut up about adoption and serial killers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652 "2011-05-12T14:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/61 "2011-05-12T18:03:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s a claim made without overwhelming supporting evidence. In other words, it’s an opionion with some factual support very much like the assertion that adoption is always a wonderful positive experience. Neither of those claims have any factual support. Only an idiot would believe that adoption is always a wonderful positive experience, and only an idiot would believe that adoption turns people into serial killers. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/62 "2011-05-12T18:03:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do you believe that all adoptions are forced? On some level yes, I think if given access to safe abortion, a woman who doesn’t want a child will not go through with the pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/63 "2011-05-12T18:08:02Z")
Uh… you do know that women in, say, the US have access to safe abortion\*, but go through with pregnancies anyway, right? \*Yes, I know it’s difficult in some geographic areas. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/64 "2011-05-12T18:10:07Z")
Well, my sociopath half-brother is adopted as an infant. Of course, if his total lack of human empathy is genetic, that explains it a lot better than the adoption does. In other words, I think it’s more likely that he was given up because his biological family had some of the same issues rather than that he was adopted by my dad and his first wife. And I know tons of well-adjusted adopted people. (And just one evil one.) I definitely can’t generalize beyond my experience with one monster and say that adoption breeds serial killers. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/65 "2011-05-12T18:35:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t read all the quotes. It was an issue of some extreme pro-choice argument. > > Well, let’s look at it this way: If abortion is outlawed, there will be more people (probably). The more people there are, the more serial killers there will be. Bingo! (Of course, the more people there are, the more Einsteins there will be, too, but let’s just focus on the serial killers.) More people, more serial killers. Sounds like nature’s way of thinning the herd. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/66 "2011-05-12T18:51:00Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Well, my sociopath half-brother is adopted as an infant. Of course, if his total lack of human empathy is genetic, that explains it a lot better than the adoption does. In other words, I think it’s more likely that he was given up because his biological family had some of the same issues rather than that he was adopted by my dad and his first wife. And I know tons of well-adjusted adopted people. (And just one evil one.) > > I definitely can’t generalize beyond my experience with one monster and say that adoption breeds serial killers. So that would make you Brian (Or do you prefer Rudy now)? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/67 "2011-05-12T18:54:25Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Even if there is some correlation between adoption and serial killing (or depression or mental illness), there are a lot of factors to consider that point away from adoption itself being the causative factor. Looking over the list of adopted serial killers, many lists include killers placed in foster care along with the adoptees, and a certain number of children are going to end up in foster care as wards of the state due to early behavioral problems, impuse control problems, and juvenile deliquency consistent with later psychopathy. Children may also wind up in foster care due to early onset mental illness, or may suffer from later problems due to inheritable mental illness from the birth parent (e.g. schizophrenia), or due to abuse in the birth home. In these cases adoption or foster care is symptomatic, not causative. And this is one of the reasons that Annie’s claims irk me so much. There are a lot of social ills that need to be addressed in this country. There are many people with mental health problems who don’t have access to proper treatment. There are many unwanted children abused in the foster system. Blaming adoption for the outcomes that are caused by other problems is harmful. And doing so because you have some other agenda is despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/68 "2011-05-12T18:59:11Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > Or maybe the entire psychiatric profession is conspiring with the entire adoption community to torture children by removing them from abusive homes. You’ve discovered our secret plot. Now you must die. At the hands of an adopted child 😃 ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/69 "2011-05-12T19:04:18Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > You’ve discovered our secret plot. Now you must die. > > At the hands of an adopted child 😃 Aaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! ::flees in terror:: ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/70 "2011-05-12T19:08:47Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > So that would make you Brian (Or do you prefer Rudy now)? No, it makes me Deb. ETA - only I hate his guts. Well, I’m a couple seasons behind, maybe Deb has changed her mind. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/71 "2011-05-12T19:10:28Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Then consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Adopted children are at greater risk for depression and mental illness. With people like you around, I don’t blame them. ---
**Author:** ![MissTake](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misstake/32/3189_2.png) [@MissTake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissTake)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/72 "2011-05-12T19:16:09Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > Aaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! ::flees in terror:: _Diverts attention from **RNATB** to **redtail23** _ Run while you can… Bwah ha ha ha ha! ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/73 "2011-05-12T19:28:56Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > How is stating the obvious more serial killers were adopted than occurs in the general population a false claim? Serial killers are also more likely to be male than female. Therefore all baby boys will grow up to be be serial killers. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/74 "2011-05-12T19:31:21Z")
How could anyone read ZPGZ, agree with her, and not see the insanity? I had no idea Annie Xmas was just as nuts. ZPGZ has her background to blame. What bit Annie’s butt? How could these two not see how hateful they are? Not being able to follow such simple premises as correlation vs causation and the dangers of abusive backgrounds to child development _ **PRE** _-adoption demonstrates an obvious disconnect from reality. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/75 "2011-05-12T19:33:37Z")
> [@MissTake](#): > > _Diverts attention from **RNATB** to **redtail23** _ > Run while you can… > Bwah ha ha ha ha! Yikes, they’re everywhere! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/76 "2011-05-12T19:55:37Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > On some level yes, I think if given access to safe abortion, a woman who doesn’t want a child will not go through with the pregnancy. Depends, sometimes a woman doesn’t want a child but doesn’t want to abort (the “it’s not the baby’s fault” mindset); also, sometimes a kid ends up adopted due to death of the parents. I understand from previous posts that you think it’s best to leave a child with biological parents who beat it or keep it drugged than to remove the kid and give it to other people - do you also consider this so when this other people are blood relatives (as is the case in many countries when possible), or only if there’s no relationship? (Genuine question, only cos we’re in the Pit doesn’t mean every question mark is loaded) ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/77 "2011-05-12T20:05:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Uh… you do know that women in, say, the US have access to safe abortion\*, but go through with pregnancies anyway, right? > > \*Yes, I know it’s difficult in some geographic areas. Access to abortion legally yes. Financially, not always and certainly there is very little social and community encouragement for choosing abortion in comparision for choosing to give birth. Simply trying to make the procedure illegal isn’t the only way the anti-abortion movement (which I really view as just a production arm for the adoption industry) works. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/78 "2011-05-12T20:06:02Z")
So if I join the [Adopt-A-Highway](http://www.adoptahighway.net/?gclid=CMX3w6mb46gCFcsZQgod1EaHDg) program, there will be more fatal accidents on the stretch I sponsor? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/79 "2011-05-12T20:14:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Depends, sometimes a woman doesn’t want a child but doesn’t want to abort (the “it’s not the baby’s fault” mindset); also, sometimes a kid ends up adopted due to death of the parents. > > I understand from previous posts that you think it’s best to leave a child with biological parents who beat it or keep it drugged than to remove the kid and give it to other people - do you also consider this so when this other people are blood relatives (as is the case in many countries when possible), or only if there’s no relationship? (Genuine question, only cos we’re in the Pit doesn’t mean every question mark is loaded) I do not remotely think it is best to leave a child with biological parents who abuse him or her. There are many alternatives. Other family members for example. You know family is a lot more than just a mother and father. I was raised largely by my aunt and her husband because well quite frankly I despised my parents, but it never occurred to me that my parents (the woman in whose utersus I was incubated and the man who provided the sperm) did not exist or that I should refer to my aunt as anything other than Auntie. I have known individuals raised in good orphanages and they are some of the finest people I know. Legal guardianship by a sane indivdiual or is another option. But there is something absolutely evil in my mind about looking at a defenseless child and saying, okay, I’ll make sure they have food and don’t get raped, but only if they agree to call me mom or dad. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652/80 "2011-05-12T20:17:30Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I was raised largely by my aunt and her husband… And look how well that turned out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-annie-xmas-shut-up-about-adoption-and-serial-killers/581652.md?page=5)