# Seriously, how can anyone believe in religions like Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294 "2009-07-26T04:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/281 "2009-07-31T18:38:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, we’re having a discussion about whether claims that can’t be verified are the same as claims that _aren’t_- and I didn’t say anything like “science is a gigantic web of lies”, but thanks for making shit up about my position. I think **Nation** is saying that, not you. The problem is that the claims **are** verified - maybe not by you but by many people with an incentive to disprove them. That happens both after the claim has been published or aired (like with cold fusion) and during peer review. As a program chair and editor, I know that even one reviewer who casts doubt upon something in a paper will cause it to be looked at very closely, and possibly rejected. Reviewers who make long comments get more credence in the accept/reject decision than ones who write either “Great” or “Crap” and nothing else. We take this stuff very seriously. There are also multiple levels of trust. Things like quantum mechanics get verified billions of times a second. Lots of incorrect conclusions are sitting out there in the literature since no one cares, but these are mostly trivial. A friend of mine, a physics major, had his PhD delayed a year when he showed that something that was accepted was incorrect. It wasn’t important enough for a PhD by itself. And incorrect stuff sneaks through. When I was in grad school someone (not in my department) published a paper with a bad proof that would haver rocked the world if true. This was in the most prestigious journal in the area. Two months later there were a spate of letters - including one from the author - saying “whoops.” The more eyes have looked at something, the more you can trust it. You’re quite correct in not trusting a single study you see in the paper about food x is bad for you or food y is good for you. The study has almost certainly not been replicated. And I agree that we can’t rule out a higher power - I’m just going to act as if there is nothing there until I see a good reason not to. For the record, I am to all intents and purposes an atheist, except inasmuch as I think the Kalam cosmological argument makes sense (and doesn’t contradict scientifically established fact). Thanks for that. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/282 "2009-07-31T18:42:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Actually, it’s entirely possibly for a commonly accepted scientific statement to be false through simple error- and if the error is one of thought rather than rigor, it’s entirely possible for the same mistake to be made by several people. That’s why the experimental physicists check up on the conclusions of the theoretical physicists. The most common reason for the kind of error you mention is bad assumptions. When we make them, and run an experiment, nature slaps us down. That is a crucial difference between science and religion. Aristotle and that crowd did science by reasoning, with often impeccable logic. But they didn’t believe in checking by experimentation, and they were almost always wrong. If they were right, like in atomic theory, it was more or less by accident. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/283 "2009-07-31T19:12:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: Forgot to make a point! Well, here it is: although scientific theories do a much better job of explaining the universe, they’re not infallible and more importantly, neither are the people promulgating them. It’s therefore foolish to absolutely rule out the existence some sort of higher power. Better to file it under “unverified”. No, that’s just pandering to religion. There’s no evidence for it at all, and it’s not a position we would take with some other baseless claim. I doubt you would say the same about fairies, or a claim that the world is flat and on the back of a giant turtle, and NASA is faking the evidence claiming otherwise. Slap the religion label on something though and we are supposed to pretend it’s a reasonable possibility no matter how ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/284 "2009-07-31T19:35:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, that’s just pandering to religion. There’s no evidence for it at all, and it’s not a position we would take with some other baseless claim. I doubt you would say the same about fairies, or a claim that the world is flat and on the back of a giant turtle, and NASA is faking the evidence claiming otherwise. Slap the religion label on something though and we are supposed to pretend it’s a reasonable possibility no matter how ridiculous. There is nothing “ridiculous” about the possibility of the existence of “God.” As has been indicated: it’s an unverifiable assertion. This being the case, you can’t ridicule it (well, at least not in the sense of pointing to evidence and saying, “Can’t be true!”). That’s why it is always best when scientists avoid discussions involving belief systems and believers avoid trying to assert that there is evidence of their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/285 "2009-07-31T19:42:15Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > There is nothing “ridiculous” about the possibility of the existence of “God.” As has been indicated: it’s an unverifiable assertion. This being the case, you can’t ridicule it (well, at least not in the sense of pointing to evidence and saying, “Can’t be true!”). That’s why it is always best when scientists avoid discussions involving belief systems and believers avoid trying to assert that there is evidence of their beliefs. Is there something \*ridiculous \*about the possibility of the existence of _Vampires_? What if they can turn invisible at will and pass through solid walls in mist form? There very well could be a god and vampires, but until some evidence is provided the rational thing would be to live like they didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/286 "2009-07-31T19:45:02Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > There is nothing “ridiculous” about the possibility of the existence of “God.” As has been indicated: it’s an unverifiable assertion. This being the case, you can’t ridicule it (well, at least not in the sense of pointing to evidence and saying, “Can’t be true!”). That’s why it is always best when scientists avoid discussions involving belief systems and believers avoid trying to assert that there is evidence of their beliefs. Is there anything ridiculous about the hypothesis that werewolves, leprechauns, wood sprites or hobgoblins exist? Is there any hypothesis at all that _can_ be fairly said to be ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/287 "2009-07-31T19:46:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Slap the religion label on something though and we are supposed to pretend it’s a reasonable possibility no matter how ridiculous. I didn’t say that the explanations put forth by any major religion were reasonable possibilities, just that to absolutely deny the existence of god(s)- for all possible values of god- is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/288 "2009-07-31T19:50:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I didn’t say that the explanations put forth by any major religion were reasonable possibilities, just that to absolutely deny the existence of god(s)- for all possible values of god- is a bad idea. But not as bad as absolutely discounting vampires! It could be anyone! Say what you want about god, but he’s never tried to suck anyone’s blood (to my knowledge). Edit: Do you invite people into your house by the way? Do you at least give them the garlic check just in case? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/289 "2009-07-31T19:51:04Z")
I don’t suppose the possibility of the existence of God is ridiculous _per se_, but once you realize that belief in the Christian God and belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster are both equally valid it’s pretty hard not to laugh at them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/290 "2009-07-31T19:51:15Z")
Do you believe ther is any possibility that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists? Are people who dismiss any possibility of the FSM being unreasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/291 "2009-07-31T19:51:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I didn’t say that the explanations put forth by any major religion were reasonable possibilities, just that to absolutely deny the existence of god(s)- for all possible values of god- is a bad idea. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/292 "2009-07-31T19:55:23Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > But not as bad as absolutely discounting vampires! It could be anyone! Say what you want about god, but he’s never tried to suck anyone’s blood (to my knowledge). > > Edit: Do you invite people into your house by the way? Do you at least give them the garlic check just in case? No. I also don’t behave as if god exists, as already noted. > [@](#): > > Why? Not a bad idea, perhaps, but not justified, IMHO. > [@](#): > > Do you believe ther is any possibility that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists? Are people who dismiss any possibility of the FSM being unreasonable? A possibility? Yes. Are nonbelievers unreasonable? No. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/293 "2009-07-31T19:57:08Z")
Is it justifiable to deny the existence of Zeus? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/294 "2009-07-31T19:58:28Z")
I think we can all agree that communion with the FSM would be much more delicious. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/295 "2009-07-31T20:00:38Z")
Mmm, sacrilicious. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/296 "2009-07-31T20:02:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. I also don’t behave as if god exists, as already noted. But you are saying it’s reasonable to do so. Aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/297 "2009-07-31T20:03:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Is it justifiable to deny the existence of Zeus? No. > [@](#): > > But you are saying it’s reasonable to do so. Aren’t you? No. I’m saying it’s reasonable- even sensible- to accept the possibility that a supreme being exists. It’s not reasonable to behave as if one exists because there is no reasonable evidence that said being has provided any guidance as to how that is accomplished. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/298 "2009-07-31T20:04:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. Seriously? ETA: Is it reasonable to deny the existence of Aslan? Superman? Bizarro? Is it reasonable to deny the existence of ANYTHING? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/299 "2009-07-31T20:05:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. How about wood sprites? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/300 "2009-07-31T20:08:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Seriously? Well, it depends on what he means by “deny”, and what exactly constitutes Zeus. ETA: Re Aslan/Superman/wood sprites, etc.- see above. Define “deny the existence of”, and define the being. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294.md?page=16)