# Seriously, how can anyone believe in religions like Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294 "2009-07-26T04:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/61 "2009-07-27T02:35:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [QUOTE=Gustav] > You’re not seriously suggesting that people are born with a belief in god? Are you suggesting they are born with an opinion on it one way or another? [/QUOTE] Having no belief in gods because you’ve never heard of the idea is a form of atheism. > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > And a lot of people believe in Christianity for perfectly good reasons. They believe that they should keep up with the charities, and they believe that they should help their neighbors, and as in the case of one woman I debated religion with, they believe that their five year old daughters will be waiting for them in heaven. As long as they behave themselves, who are we to try to talk them out of it? “We” are the people who will pay the price for their irrationality. When they vote for politicians or support laws because their delusion tells them to, those of us who don’t believe get hurt. > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > But I also believe in respecting others even if I don’t agree with them. Why ? Some beliefs - and religion is one of them - are simply too stupid to deserve respect. Tolerance means you don’t attack or imprison people for disagreeing with you or being fools; it doesn’t men you have to respect or pretend to respect them. > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > They’re going to believe in _something_. (You guys _do_ know that you’re not going to unplug most theists no matter what you say, right?) Not right away, but the growing numbers of atheists in Europe shows that religion isn’t an automatic fact of life. > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Why not let the good theists believe what they believe and concentrate on the crazies? Because they are ALL crazy. And because even the less directly harmful ones enable the violent ones, and hurt people in less overt ways than shooting them. If I die due to religious objections to AIDS research or stem cell research, I’m just as dead as if I’m killed by a fanatic who shoots me for Allah or starts a nuclear war for Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/62 "2009-07-27T02:48:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It expresses it in snarky tones, but how is it in error? Basically, there is no such thing as _the_ doctrine of atonement (despite my previous wording). There is the idea of atonement, and then there are various doctrines (i.e., conflicting doctrines, held by different denominations) as to just what it was about Jesus’s death and/or resurrection that was supposed to atone, and what it was supposed to atone for. The OP’s proposition parodies one, but only one, of the various competing doctrines concerning the atoning significance of Jesus’s death and/or resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/63 "2009-07-27T02:51:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Why ? Some beliefs - and religion is one of them - are simply too stupid to deserve respect. Tolerance means you don’t attack or imprison people for disagreeing with you or being fools; it doesn’t men you have to respect or pretend to respect them. Fair enough, **Trihs** , but try not to act too indignant when they turn it around right back on you and feed you some of what you dish out. > [@](#): > > Because they are ALL crazy. And because even the less directly harmful ones enable the violent ones, and hurt people in less overt ways than shooting them. If I die due to religious objections to AIDS research or stem cell research, I’m just as dead as if I’m killed by a fanatic who shoots me for Allah or starts a nuclear war for Christ. Oh, so they’re all crazy. Really, **Trihs**? Everyone who believes in a god is crazy? 80% of the world’s population has a mental illness? Including the born-again surgeons, the Jewish psychiatrists, and the Muslim engineers? The teachers? The plumbers? The pilots? If they go to church, temple or the mosque, they’re crazy? Do you _really_ believe this? And I suppose _you’re_ the picture of mental stability? I don’t have a problem with telling you, **Trihs** , the _vast_ majority of men and women who believe in god make a lot more sense than you, even when they’re discussing religion. More to the point, judging from your posts, many of which run to this sort of theme, they’re most likely a lot more pleasant to be around. Ever think that might have something to do with the problem? And not that you’re willing to believe this, seeing as how you label them all crazy, but quite a few theists believe in AIDS research. Many of them are _involved_ in AIDS research, dude! I’ve met them. I was a science major. And if the majority of politicians who believed in god actually supported or enabled starting a nuclear war for Christ, you’d be glowing in the dark right now. Same with the Muzzes. Just count yourself lucky that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/64 "2009-07-27T02:57:04Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Fair enough, **Trihs** , but try not to act too indignant when they turn it around right back on you and feed you some of what you dish out. Something that they’ll do regardless. > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Oh, so they’re all crazy. Really, **Trihs**? Everyone who believes in a god is crazy? 80% of the world’s population has a mental illness? Including the born-again surgeons, the Jewish psychiatrists, and the Muslim engineers? The teachers? The plumbers? The pilots? If they go to church, temple or the mosque, they’re crazy? > > Do you _really_ believe this? Yes. Just as I would if everyone was ordering their lives according to the commands of their invisible friend or what the bag of Doritos on the table was telling them. Neither of which is any crazier than, say, Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/65 "2009-07-27T02:59:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Basically, there is no such thing as _the_ doctrine of atonement (despite my previous wording). There is the idea of atonement, and then there are various doctrines (i.e., conflicting doctrines, held by different denominations) as to just what it was about Jesus’s death and/or resurrection that was supposed to atone, and what it was supposed to atone for. > > The OP’s proposition parodies one, but only one, of the various competing doctrines concerning the atoning significance of Jesus’s death and/or resurrection. I didn’t say “the doctrine.” I asked if you believed in “the atonement.” You can fill in whatever doctrine you need to, but what is your belief if it doesn’t include God, God’s son who is also God, and the sacrifice of God/God’s son? (By “God,” here, I am referring to the commonly accepted Christian god named “God” who is omnipotent and omniscient and the Creator, directly or indirectly, of the world.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/66 "2009-07-27T03:01:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Something that they’ll do regardless. > > Yes. Just as I would if everyone was ordering their lives according to the commands of their invisible friend or what the bag of Doritos on the table was telling them. Neither of which is any crazier than, say, Christianity. Doritos only say one thing, man. “Eat me.” Except when my brother got new braces and couldn’t chew so he decided to put Doritos and Coke in a blender to form a delicious junk food shake. Then the Doritos said, “Holy fuck, this is gross.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/67 "2009-07-27T03:06:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I didn’t say “the doctrine.” I asked if you believed in “the atonement.” You can fill in whatever doctrine you need to, but what is your belief if it doesn’t include God, God’s son who is also God, and the sacrifice of God/God’s son? (By “God,” here, I am referring to the commonly accepted Christian god named “God” who is omnipotent and omniscient and the Creator, directly or indirectly, of the world.) Like I said, “the atonement” is the atoning significance of Christ’s death and/or resurrection. What “atoning” means here is up for grabs. This isn’t the place to go into it. (Lucky me!) For the OP’s sentence was: > [@](#): > > That had a “child” that was really himself, that he had to sacrifice to himself, to change a rule he himself made up? And I don’t have to disbelieve that Christ’s death and/or resurrection had atoning significance in some sense in order to disbelieve the conjunction of the three propositions found in the quoted sentence. Specifically, the proposition I and a lot of other Christians disagree with is the third one. We don’t think the atonement has anything to do with a rules change. I’d also quibble with the other two, but quibbling with a parody is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/68 "2009-07-27T03:08:43Z")
> [@Linty Fresh](#): > > Fair enough, Trihs, but try not to act too indignant when they turn it around right back on you and feed you some of what you dish out. > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Something that they’ll do regardless. My point exactly. > [@](#): > > Yes. Just as I would if everyone was ordering their lives according to the commands of their invisible friend or what the bag of Doritos on the table was telling them. Neither of which is any crazier than, say, Christianity. Well, **Trihs** , it’s up to you, but personally, I think the world runs on a slightly different sanity than yours. I could do what you do and just say fuck them all, and no doubt that would make my life easier if a bit duller. But that would be quitting. And anyway, before I commit myself to calling them all crazy, I’d like to know what the people who make that leap actually contribute to the world. ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/69 "2009-07-27T03:09:14Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Doritos only say one thing, man. “Eat me.” > [snip] Jesus said the same thing at one time. Granted, the years have put it more eloquently than his original words, but I really think that was what he said rather than, “Take this and eat it, for this is my body.” SSG Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/70 "2009-07-27T03:11:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And because as a religious country, Americans are taught to value stupidity, irrationality and ignorance instead of intelligence, rationality, and knowledge. What a load of BS. Why have secular schools, then? Why teach evolution? If you want to make the argument that “valuing stupidity” or even “embracing ignorance as an alternative to being educated” is a cultural, societal phenomenon, then I’m with you. There are many, many examples throughout history that show that Christians are a very learned people. Many were scientists, leaders, whatever… The idea is to not let religious belief cloud your mind in issues of practicality. You know, many people actually manage their minds exactly that way. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/71 "2009-07-27T03:12:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Except when my brother got new braces and couldn’t chew so he decided to put Doritos and Coke in a blender to form a delicious junk food shake. Then the Doritos said, “Holy fuck, this is gross.” Wait . . . why Coke? And wouldn’t the Doritos still get in the braces? Or don’t I want to know? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/72 "2009-07-27T03:14:42Z")
> [@SSG\_Schwartz](#): > > Jesus said the same thing at one time. Granted, the years have put it more eloquently than his original words, but I really think that was what he said rather than, “Take this and eat it, for this is my body.” > > SSG Schwartz No, Jesus really said “Take this and eat it, for this is my body.” And then the apostles said, “Fucking hell, dude, that’s your _spleen!_ You don’t think you might need that down the road? Give us the knife, and let’s see if we can’t put that back in.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/73 "2009-07-27T03:16:16Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Oh, so they’re all crazy. Really, **Trihs**? Everyone who believes in a god is crazy? 80% of the world’s population has a mental illness? Including the born-again surgeons, the Jewish psychiatrists, and the Muslim engineers? The teachers? The plumbers? The pilots? If they go to church, temple or the mosque, they’re crazy? I don’t think they are crazy, but they are emotionally crippled by the fear of the unknown. Fear transcends everything; no matter how smart you think you are, fear will wipe away all the benefits of your intellect if you let it. _Fear is the mind-killer._ _Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration._ –Frank Herbert,\* Dune\* ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/74 "2009-07-27T03:24:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t think they are crazy, but they are emotionally crippled by the fear of the unknown. Fear transcends everything; no matter how smart you think you are, fear will wipe away all the benefits of your intellect if you let it. Fear is hardly exclusive to the theists, and anyway, as I’ve said I’ve seen enough brilliant doctors who were theists (and they range the entire gamut. Christian, theist, buddhist, hindu, Frank the God of Noise Ordinance Violation–one step lower in the pantheon than Toby\*–the whole shebang). I’ve seen believing soldiers who were quite a bit braver than _my_ atheist buttocks, too. I’m just not seeing what you’re describing. Doesn’t one of the perks of atheism involve actually proving beliefs before believing in them? Between your talk of fear and **Trihs’s** talk of insanity . . . I dunno. Compared to _these_ beliefs, the theists are damn downright skeptical. \*OK, I made that up. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/75 "2009-07-27T03:29:54Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Wait . . . why Coke? And wouldn’t the Doritos still get in the braces? Or don’t I want to know? I don’t think it was a problem with things getting caught in the braces but rather his mouth was too sore to chew. As for why Coke, he just loved it. He didn’t like his Cokitos shake, though. Oh, crap. Now I realize that it might have been pizza and Coke. Pah. Close enough. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/76 "2009-07-27T03:43:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What a load of BS. Why have secular schools, then? Why teach evolution? Evolution isn’t taught many places in America. And the main reason we have secular schools is the the believers can’t agree on which dogma to ram down kid’s throats. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/77 "2009-07-27T03:56:14Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Fear is hardly exclusive to the theists, and anyway, as I’ve said I’ve seen enough brilliant doctors who were theists (and they range the entire gamut. Christian, theist, buddhist, hindu, Frank the God of Noise Ordinance Violation–one step lower in the pantheon than Toby\*–the whole shebang). Oh, don’t get me wrong, fear is not the exclusive province of theists; however, the fundamentals of all religions are fear of the the unknown. All theists are motivated by fear, but not all of those who are fearful are theists. And I don’t think brilliant doctors or lawyers or other highly educated professionals are immune to fear. They may be very, very good at what they do, but in the dark, wee hours of the morning, they are terrified of death, and cling (yes, they _cling_) to stories that comfort them and get them through the night. In that respect they are no more prepared for accepting the truth about the end of life than the least educated among us. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/78 "2009-07-27T03:56:51Z")
I think most people here are putting too much emphasis on the specific content of religious beliefs. In my experience, most people are not “believers” because of any specific doctrines. They are “believers” because their religious identity is bound together with their family and/or ethnic identity. Religion is a powerful (and probably valuable) bonding experience with their friends, family and compatriots. In this context, any naysayer just comes across as a bigot who is insulting their loved ones, and trying to throw cold water on a very treasured set of rituals and memories. So I think it’s almost pointless to quibble over how silly religious beliefs are. The beliefs are usually not the important thing for most people - the ritual/bonding aspect is the key. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/79 "2009-07-27T04:02:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Oh, don’t get me wrong, fear is not the exclusive province of theists; however, the fundamentals of all religions are fear of the the unknown. All theists are motivated by fear, but not all of those who are fearful are theists. > > And I don’t think brilliant doctors or lawyers or other highly educated professionals are immune to fear. They may be very, very good at what they do, but in the dark, wee hours of the morning, they are terrified of death, and cling (yes, they _cling_) to stories that comfort them and get them through the night. In that respect they are no more prepared for accepting the truth about the end of life than the least educated among us. I can only reiterate my request for proof. Remember, **Fear** , that our being right about this only increases our responsibility to back it up. If we want to ultimately be thought of as better than the theists, that is. Who are we to say what goes on in the wee hours of the morning with anyone we aren’t currently sleeping with? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294/80 "2009-07-27T04:04:11Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Oh, crap. Now I realize that it might have been pizza and Coke. Pah. Close enough. I think I have a business idea! Tell your brother to PM me! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-how-can-anyone-believe-in-religions-like-christianity/504294.md?page=5)