# Seriously: The all time stupidest thing I ever read on these boards **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 17, 2001, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281 "2001-09-17T23:51:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/1 "2001-09-17T23:51:41Z")
It’s in this thread here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86837&pagenumber=lastpage](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86837&pagenumber=lastpage) That’s the “Nuclear solution to WTC” thread in GD. It’s getting long so I doubt it’s being actively followd, especially since Olentzero joined, and devolved it into his predictable class struggle rhetoric. Which is ok, I guess. He’s allowed. After some hedging ad doublespeak though, and after edging around it, he finally comes out and gives his root opinion. The WTC bombing is the fault of the US, because we “cosciously created” Bin Laden and the Middle East situation. We planned it this way. Here’s the whole post: I’ve put my comments which he responds to in italics. > [@](#): > > _What does “laying the foundation” mean? Are you positing causation or responsibility? Please be precise._ > > ``` > I'm going with responsibility. US intervention in the Middle East was a conscious decision designed to attain a goal beneficial to a > minority of the US and a minority of the local populations at the expense of the rest of both. > > ``` > > _Bin Laden was responsible for the WTC bombing in '93. We did nothing. Lots of people died this past Tuesday, > because of inaction._ > > ``` > Here I would agree, but not for the same reasons. The US did nothing to change its policy towards the Middle East after 1993, > and the same conflicts remain. Yes, the US did prosecute a handful of terrorists in the 1993 bombing, and it has conducted efforts > to "get" bin Laden since 1998, but it has done nothing to address the situation, which it consciously created, that gave rise to > antipathy and hatred towards the United States. > > ``` So unbeleivably asinine, that I can’t even get worked up about the substance of what he’s saying. I’ve read Jack Dean Tyler, and Phaedrus, and seen creationist bullshit, but this takes the cake. It is the dumbest and most insensitive and unpardonably stupid thing I’ve ever read here. I am astounded that somebody could be a thinking feeling human being, live in this country, be cognizant of the events of the last week, and hold such a position. It scares me. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/2 "2001-09-18T00:05:22Z")
Welcome to America, **Scylla** , land of the freak. Actually, **Olentzero** ’s comment is pretty tame compared to the one I heard someone utter IRL the other day. The guy claimed that Bush planned and executed the whole WTC thing in order to boost his popularity in the polls! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/3 "2001-09-18T00:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > The guy claimed that Bush planned and executed the whole WTC thing in order to boost his popularity in the polls! Yeah, jeez. how stupid, especially when everyone knows CNN bankrolled it to boost ratings… ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/4 "2001-09-18T00:32:46Z")
**Scylla** , this tragedy really is bringing out the stupidest of humans, isn’t it? It’s a shame someone can be _that_ pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/5 "2001-09-18T00:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El\_Kabong \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > The guy claimed that Bush planned and executed the whole WTC thing in order to boost his popularity in the polls! > > Yeah, jeez. how stupid, especially when everyone knows CNN bankrolled it to boost ratings… \*\* Utter bull. Gary Condit did it, to simultaneously get the press to talk of something else, plus to dispose of Levy’s body in the rubble. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/6 "2001-09-18T00:56:55Z")
Well, nobody gives two shits what I think. But who cares? I’ll type anyway. Gotta get that post count up somehow. I think Olentzero is overstating the case to an uncomfortable degree. But it’s not the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen posted. There’s a kernel of truth to his contentions. For example, maybe the U.S. coulda eliminated bin Laden much sooner, and didn’t for some reason that’s beyond me. Maybe what’s up for debate is whether that kernel of truth is the size of a mustard seed or a dingleberry hanging off Osama’s ass. You may not agree with Olentzero (and I confess, I couldn’t bear to read that thread to know personally) but is he really deserving of the hyperbole? We gots a lotta dumbasses on the boards up for nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Alex\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_B)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/7 "2001-09-18T01:00:44Z")
I’m not really taking sides on this issue but I did wonder about this: When the atom bombs dropped on Japan, did any Japanese people dare to say ‘Was it something we did? Nah…just those evil Americans.’ \*\*Note: NOT comparing US V.2001 to Japan V.1945 \*\* The Japanese didn’t ask to be bombed, didn’t expect to be bombed, but nevertheless caused themselves to be. (Although the US had something to do with it too.) If **Olentzero** is asserting that the CIA trained OBL in the full knowledge that he might one day turn on his benefactors, then he is probably wrong. However, they were fully aware of the sort of man he was, and cannot calim to be completely surprised that he began attacking Americans once he ran out of Soviets. His power and reputation are built on fighting an enemy: he was always going to find someone to oppose. The crucial distinction here is between different kinds of reponsibility. The CIA never meant NY to be attacked, but it’s actions are part of the explanation for it’s occurrence, as is America’s foreign policy. One of the main reasons for the continued existence of Middle East terrorism is the appalling conditions in many countries in that area: people in prosperous and secure nations tend not to become fanatical terrorists (with some exceptions, naturally). Since the so-called victory of Capitalism against Communism, it’s become easy to dismiss arguments based on class struggles or any other socialist ideas. If you want to have that argument, fine. Do not dismiss it as if you’ve already won though. (Comparing it to Creationism doesn’t count as an argument.) If the tragedy of last week doesn’t show you that rampant self-interested Capitalism might not be the answer to the world’s problems then you weren’t paying attention. Alex B ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/8 "2001-09-18T01:06:49Z")
Hell, that ain’t even the the most vile comment I’ve seen from **Olentzero** on the board. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/9 "2001-09-18T01:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > One of the main reasons for the continued existence of Middle East terrorism is the appalling conditions in many countries in that area: > people in prosperous and secure nations tend not to become fanatical terrorists (with some exceptions, naturally). Since the so-called > victory of Capitalism against Communism, it’s become easy to dismiss arguments based on class struggles or any other socialist > ideas. If you want to have that argument, fine. Do not dismiss it as if you’ve already won though. (Comparing it to Creationism doesn’t > count as an argument.) If the tragedy of last week doesn’t show you that rampant self-interested Capitalism might not be the answer to > the world’s problems then you weren’t paying attention. Class differences may indeed be a cause of the anti-US strife in the Middle East. If so, I’d guess that are support of Israel, and the effects of US culture and mores are larger causes. Certainly I’d concur that economics is a large issue. The Russians had problems with the Afghanis, too, and they were supposedly pretty class conscience. It’s a debate and perhaps an interesting one. Here however, I’m pretty much sticking to dumbstruck amazement at the callous stupidity and willful ignorance of O’s comments. The U.S. is responsible for the WTC problem, because we “consciously” set up the situation in the Mideast, and trained Osama Bin Laden so he could do it. In short, we planned it. How we’re credited with this foreknowledge, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Yue\_Han](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/eada6e/32.png) [@Yue\_Han](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yue_Han)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/10 "2001-09-18T01:52:32Z")
I’ve seen posts by Brithael and, oh, wossname, the guy I joined the board just to flame he was so awful; watched in awe as Phaedrus self-destructed, sat through at least two different incarnations of Cyberian/JohnJohn and was here for three or four events we don’t talk because we’re afraid of what would happen. That was not the stupidest thing to ever appear on the Board. It was an opinion that you disagree with and find horribly misguided. –John ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/11 "2001-09-18T01:55:03Z")
**Scylla** , I gave up on that thread days ago, when it got hijacked into The Class War. I’ve been waiting for **Olentzero** to say the US Army is responsible for OKC, because they trained McVeigh and should have known he was unstable… ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/12 "2001-09-18T12:40:48Z")
Well, I must be a little bit tougher than I thought, because I’ve stuck through that entire abortion of a thread since it’s misguided inception. **Olentzero** , in typical fashion, overstates the culpability of the CIA (as **Cranky** said), and glosses over the cultural influences which produced bin Laden for which the US bears no responsibility. But nothing he’s said in that thread comes anywhere close to being “the stupidest thing ever” on these boards. **Scylla** , I think you’ve taken this feud with **Olentzero** to the point where you’re no longer looking for the meaning in anything he writes; you’re only looking for more phrases to be offended by. IMHO, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/13 "2001-09-18T13:26:20Z")
Xenophon: I wish you would take me at my word. I don’t have a feud with Olentzero. In fact, what I know about him personally suggests he’s a pretty good guy. So, I harbor no ill feelings towards him whatsoever. His arguments on the other hand are something else entirely. 4 pages of hemming and hawing and edging around the point, and finally he comes out with his big thesis. It’s our fault. We killed those people. The frustration I feel is at myself for having bothered with such dreck. I generally know better. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/14 "2001-09-18T14:23:40Z")
My mouth was agape not just at that, but at the sentiment he expressed to me in that thread: that man _creates_ history. Of course, if you believe history is a conscious creation it is easy to pin the blame on the US for bin Laden. In fact, its easy to lay blame for all actions everywhere; perhaps that is a comforting way to live, where all of man’s material actions have direct conscious causes… I just don’t see that as true or even possible. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/15 "2001-09-18T15:01:39Z")
Well, not wanting to get into the middle of this… But would like to point out that this isn’t Olentzero’s own insight–it was in yesterday’s Chicago _Tribune_, which will require registration if you want to read the whole thing, and after 7 days, will require $$$. By Tom Hundley, Tribune Foreign Correspondent > [@](#): > > U.S. had hand in creating an implacable foe (09/17/01) > REQUIRES REGISTRATION: Register now or Log in here In an interview three years ago, former National Security Adviser Zbignew Brzezinski answered a question by asking one: "Which is more important in world history: The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few over-excited Islamists or the… And he goes on to say basically what O.Z. said, that it’s our own fault. > [@](#): > > Last week, the bill came due on the U.S. decision, taken more than two decades ago, to arm and finance a fundamentalist jihad, or holy war, against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The U.S. must now launch a war against the sophisticated and well-equipped terrorist network that it helped spawn. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/16 "2001-09-18T15:07:00Z")
Duck: That’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/17 "2001-09-18T15:19:49Z")
> [@](#): > > His arguments on the other hand are something else entirely. 4 pages of hemming and hawing and edging around the point, and finally he comes out with his big thesis. It’s our fault. We killed those people. The thing is, I that’s not what **Olentzero** actually said. He may not be stating his thesis very clearly at all, but that thesis is clearly not what you say it is. His thesis is that US policies created conditions in which the bin Ladens of the world could prosper. He’s even stated quite unequivocably that this is not an excuse for the terrorists. **Scylla** , I’ll take you at your word that you have no grudge or feud with **Olent** , but I think you’re misrepresenting his position. I’m sure that this is unintentional, but I’m not sure where the inability to fairly represent his argument comes from, if not from high emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/18 "2001-09-18T15:33:15Z")
Xenophon: I don’t think so. In the questions I’ve cited in the OP to which O responded, I asked him explicity whether the US was responsible for the WTC bombings in his opinion or whether we was suggesting we had merely unintentionally caused it. He responded: > [@](#): > > I’m going with responsibility. US intervention in the Middle East was a conscious decision designed to attain a goal beneficial to a > minority of the US and a minority of the local populations at the expense of the rest of both. I don’t know how to reduce it any simpler than that. He said we knew what the effects would be and did it anyway. In his second answer he basically says it’s doubly our fault, not because we didn’t get Bin Laden, but because we didn’t appease the Middle East. What am I misinterpreting? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/19 "2001-09-18T15:53:00Z")
**Scylla** , I will concede that you are correct in your interpretation if **Olentzero** will state it the way you did. It appears to me that he’s saying the US is responsible for the existence of many of the terrorists on whom we’re currently contemplating war, and specifically responsible for the existence of bin Laden. I have not seen any statement from him that the US is _directly responsible_ for bin Laden’s actions post-USSR invasion, or for the actions of the hijackers presumably under bin Laden’s management. While I disagree vehemently with the idea that the US is culpable in any way for the terrorist attacks, I don’t object to **O** ’s assertion that some of our past policies had unintended consequences which included enabling bin Laden to some extent. **NOTE:** THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE’RE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HE DID! OR THAT OUR POLICIES WERE BAD OR FOOLISH! OR THAT WE WOULDN’T BE HATED NO MATTER WHAT OUR POLICIES WERE, JUST BECAUSE OF WHAT OUR COUNTRY STANDS FOR! Sorry for shouting, but I don’t want anyone to mistake my comments for sympathy/empathy with the terrorists, or for unqualified support for **Olentzero** ’s argument. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281/20 "2001-09-18T16:14:26Z")
Xenophon: Well, I was quoting his words. I myself really didn’t believe that he was espousing such a point of view which is why I asked him outright. No need to concede anything here. I’d be glad to be wrong. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seriously-the-all-time-stupidest-thing-i-ever-read-on-these-boards/82281.md?page=2)