Seriously, this thread is closed?

I also said that it was probably a good idea to close the thread, but not because it was Holocaust denial. It’s a distasteful and offensive topic with no good purpose, which is an entirely different issue.

The discussion that posits that it’s the man’s child, too. I don’t believe that this should ever supersede the woman’s imperative to bodily autonomy, but it’s an argument that can be advanced in good faith, perhaps arguing that if the partners disagree about an abortion, that a court should evaluate the circumstances and make a ruling.

I don’t want to get sidetracked into making actual arguments here, but my point is that “prohibited topics” should be interpreted very narrowly and should not risk legitimate tangential discussions also being prohibited. We want to ban blatant bigotry, racism, misogyny, and other toxic subjects without interfering with other legitimate and related discussions even if they’re sometimes sensitive.

So what? I am sure a great many scientific racists, for example, believe everything they are saying (and a lot more that they aren’t saying).

Isn’t that just another way of violating the woman’s bodily autonomy? To me this line of debate is very offensive and am glad the mods cut it off.

Maybe it would be a better use of everyone’s time to just post an honest disclaimer about what the purpose of this website and its various subdivisions are.

The SDMB is a social club for early Internet adopter boomers who got together in the 90s and found that they enjoyed hanging out and making small talk with each other. After various failed attempts to be something else in the 2000s, it has decided in 2022 that it has no interest in being anything else or in avoiding going under once its userbase finishes dying off. It is explicitly hostile to the idea of making any sort of accommodations for new members whose demographic or ideological orientations might differ from the remaining core of highly active users.

There is nothing wrong with this. Certainly you have the right to run a message board for 50-something Star Trek fans to have conversations about the minutiae of their lives and assure each other that anyone who deviates from the Bernie-to-Hillary window of political opinions is irredeemably evil, dishonest, and stupid. But - it has to be acknowledged that this is what we are talking about in terms of “the SDMB and its rules” if you want to make any sense of anything that goes on here.

There are two forums supposedly dedicated to debates. Don’t ask why there are two, or why the one explicitly NOT labeled “politics & elections” contains nothing but threads about current U.S. political issues. If you don’t already know, then that means you’re one of the Trolls and the fact that you’re asking proves you’re a bad person who deserves whatever you get. These two forums are not actually for debate; they are for asserting how virtuous one is for believing in the acceptable window of opinions (nothing to the left of Bernie or the right of Hillary, ever). A few people will insist that this isn’t the case, though they will not explain how everyone who deviates from that window eventually is banned other than the straight-faced assertion that being outside that window magically correlates with being “a jerk” or unable to follow “the rules” with 100% accuracy across every situation and personality. Others will analyze this as being primarily an attempt to enforce those political opinions on a larger userbase as part of a political project, which again, is missing the point. The point is that for at least the last 15 years, the SDMB has been viewed by the people who actually control it as a social space for their friends, and their perception of people who come into their social space to try to “debate politics” is the same as people who are running a backyard barbecue for their friends and see a stranger wander in yelling about Trump. It has very little to do with what the stranger’s opinions are or whether anyone agrees with them, it’s about the rudeness of disturbing a social space among longtime friends with political arguments at all. There is, de facto, no tolerance for people looking to “debate politics” there, something which in the context is viewed as unfathomably rude and done by those are who are aggressively socially inept.

There is a forum called the “BBQ Pit” where people who have been here for 23 years and have the right politics are allowed not only to abuse others with impunity, but, more insidiously, to maintain running commentary threads in which every single post by someone outside of the clique is responded to with “looks like Captain Dumbass is shitting out of his mouth again” regardless of whether anything specifically objectionable is contained in that post. The same privileges are, of course, not accorded to people who are not in the group or who don’t wish to participate in free-for-all mudslinging (but their posts might be moved to that forum for target practice if the mods feel like it). The fact that this forum exists is treated as an inherently necessary and logical fact of the universe; any attempt at connecting behavior there with the accelerating death of the SDMB is simply met with “it’s The Pit so it doesn’t matter” as if people who have not been posting here since the era of rotary telephones have any idea what that means or any reason to care about the distinction.

And, of course, there is an “About This Message Board” forum where people LARP as participants in a message board where there are objective “rules” that the mods “enforce” and the power users care about being applied in a rational and objective way. The first clue that this is not the case is the following test: Could a person without access to “the rules” come anywhere close to determining what they are by observing how the moderation team actually acts? The answer, of course, is no. There are people who love the idea of being constitution-writers and legislators who will endlessly debate what “the rules” should be in this forum even though they bear no resemblance to the actual motivations of staff action (keeping the social space tranquil by forbidding discussion of certain topics and the entrance of new people). Most threads that are closed are done so for vague, undocumented reasons such as “going off the rails” or “we’re done here” - sometimes this translates to “a member of the clique with unlimited trolling privileges didn’t like uncomfortable points being made and decided to shit up the thread with reams of nonsense, so we’re going to punish everyone but him by closing the thread and sanctioning future discussions of the topic.” Often it just means “the people and content in this thread are against the real, unwritten rules.” There is also a crazy fealty to the idea that this forum, which has been on the perpetual brink of death from both technical incompetence and user attrition for years, has somehow evolved to figure out the right way to run things and that we must defer to past decisions; hence yet another example of the total insanity presented to new users, which is that explicit racism is not against the rules, but completely centrist political positions that the clique has decided they do not wish to engage with are automatically racist and will never be allowed to be discussed.

Some people still don’t get that there is no winning the game of “since this forum says it’s for discussing X using rules Y, it doesn’t make any sense that Z was sanctioned for doing so” because that is not in fact what the SDMB is for. If you’re not part of the small-talk group and you don’t want to nod and agree with the late-middle-aged “in this house we believe…” crowd, then you’re not wanted here, there will no “rule” or “argument” that ever stops the staff from fulfilling what they understand their job to be (getting you to leave), and you’re wasting your time preaching to an audience of a few hundred people who are the least likely group in the world to admit that they need to change their opinion about anything. Go do literally anything else and it will be more productive for whatever your goal is.

It’s not a question of honest belief, because as you say, racists believe all sorts of crazy shit. Maybe “good faith” wasn’t the best term to use. What I mean is that arguments about the male partner’s role in an abortion decision can potentially be made without introducing the bigoted concept of male superiority. Similarly one should be able to ask legitimate questions about things that did or did not happen during the Holocaust without being labeled a “Holocaust denier”. Just like one should be able to object to government policies on climate change without being labeled a “climate change denier”.

Yes, it is. That’s why I vehemently disagree with it. But as a legitimate debate, it’s no different than the national debate about abortion that’s been raging since forever. I have a very strong pro-choice position on the matter, but I don’t consider the debate itself inherently “offensive”. And we’ve had threads debating this subject here quite frequently.

I live in the US in a red state, where we’ve already got the judiciary taking away girls’ and women’s bodily autonomy, so it’s pretty offensive to me to even entertain that line of thinking. It’s bickering over custody of a fetus.

In theory, I suppose it’s possible. In practice, I’ve never seen it.

One should, but I’ve never seen anyone who asked the single question about the single topic, and said, “Oh, now I know”, and didn’t continue to use that as a wedge to talk about the topic.

I don’t know if “just like” is an appropriate segue there, as one is not like the other. Assuming that we agree that climate change is a real thing, then discussing what we need to do about it, especially government involvement, is important and productive. There are actions that should be taken by individuals and groups that we need to discuss.

What actions need to be taken as a result as to whether or not a lampshade was made from human skin?

It’s different because one is the act of the state commandeering a woman’s body for its own purposes, that’s something that has an action coupled to it, we can vote and advocate for or against it.

The other is a man commandeering a woman’s body for his purposes.

Mod Nudge: You’re wandering into debating a non-board issue in an ATMB thread. That is not allowed. Please pull back.

Actually, the whole abortion debate is a pretty good example of the point I’m trying to make here.

The rule about men’s rights advocacy makes sense and I agree with it; the term itself is basically a euphemism for advocating for male superiority. But let’s think about the broader abortion debate, the national one, and the one that turns up in threads here quite often. It’s about the woman’s bodily autonomy and reproductive rights on one hand, and a bunch of predominantly male politicians on the other hand, and recently, as well, the concurrence with the anti-abortion side by the conservative wing of the Supreme Court, which consists entirely of men with the exception of one evangelical nutbar.

So, with that in mind, any anti-abortion (or, euphemistically, “pro-life”) argument is not just implicitly an argument for male dominance over women’s reproductive rights, it’s pretty much explicitly rooted in the fundamental notion of male superiority. Does that mean that abortion debates – and specifically, taking the “pro-life” side – is now banned on this board? Because that would be the logical conclusion to the reasoning that’s been offered for recent moderation decisions.

It was the child support part of the argument that caused all the trouble to start with. That is firmly in the MRA zone. Please go check what I staff noted of hid in the thread if you’re not sure.

Ouch. But well said.

I don’t agree with all of what Zoster says, but I have long thought that the long-running single poster Pit threads are pathetic and that those who keep posting in them are generally people I wouldn’t want to interact with. Far too much of this board was terminally online years before modern social media gave us the term.

I did go and carefully read the relevant staff-noted items. I also re-read the rule in question.

Respectfully, I think we’re just going to have to disagree, and my view is that the rule in question was rather unfortunately titled “men’s rights advocacy” when that’s not really what it means. For convenience, here it is in full:

Men’s Rights Advocacy. This can include threads about how men are somehow disadvantaged in society, women are somehow genetically inferior or have a predisposition toward specific gender roles and other threads about the ways in which men are somehow naturally entitled to be in charge

What I get from this is a prohibition against the advocacy of male superiority, or whining about how women’s rights are putting men at an alleged disadvantage. It’s not about men’s rights per se. I mean, clearly, men have rights; women have rights; we all have rights. Dogs and cats have rights. ISTM the rule is not really about rights, it’s about bigotry, false superiority, and discrimination.

OK, with that, I think I’m going to bow out of this thread. Ultimately it was about one thread that was temporarily closed and then re-opened, and then about another thread that was closed that I agree should have been closed, although not closed for the right reason, IMHO. We’ve micro-analyzed this to death. I appreciate the opportunity to have given my opinion.

Cool.

I somehow get the feeling that you think this is a bad thing.
It’s not.

And yet.

They said we are moving it to the Pit or closing it. I chose the Pit to keep it open so of course I “agreed” to move it to the Pit

That is not true. I was given only the option of Pit or closed. I don’t know who told you I could rewrite it but no, that option was never given to me. Unless you are implying I should have left it closed and rewrote it on my own but the way you are writing it, it seems like that was a third option the mods gave to me and it was not.

I propose that this sort of rant might on occasion be forgiven–but if it’s a poster’s major contribution to the board, that poster should, for their sake and the board’s sake, be banned. A person who clearly thinks so little of this community does themselves no favors by continuing to visit the community, and certainly does not improve the community.

What else could “rewrite it” mean?

Note that I’ve seen times when a thread has been closed and the mods warned the OP to not try to recreate the thread, that wasn’t the case here.