# Service in Israeli Armed Forces **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174 "2004-08-23T23:54:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/21 "2014-07-24T15:50:50Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The Haredim(?) are fairly fundamentalist, orthodox Jews who believe it is important to simply study the scriptures while the state provides for their needs. I’m sure someone with more detail can explain their beliefs, but they seem to think a secular Jewish state (as opposed to church hierarchy?) has no legitimate authority so they should be exempt from military service. Close. More accurate: They believe that such study is so important in God’s eyes, that God will reward their study with peace and security, to a degree commensurate with their devotion and acts. In this light, they see themselves not as exempt from military service, but an active part of it, in the sense that the military wouldn’t be as effective without this help. > [@md2000](#): > > Due to Israel’s fragmented rep-by-pop Knesset, they have leveraged their small but vocal political voice to carve out an exemption from military service. Yes. But similar things are done by small political voices in _any_ government that needs swing votes. > [@md2000](#): > > As I understood the issue, this was supposed to be for those spending their time in devout studies, ie. advanced rabbinical school, but apparently was applied to entire segments of the population who spend their adult life studying while on welfare. It has always been applied and enforced only for those actively studying in such schools. But on a practical level, once someone reaches a certain age (and I don’t know what the cutoff is) he no longer needs this exemption because his age is enough to get him out of serving in the military. The numbers of people who leave school at this point are high enough to suggest that their main motivation was draft evasion rather than religious devotion, but is that much different than the American universities whose enrollment swelled during Vietnam? > [@md2000](#): > > there was mention that a recent supreme court decision there removed that exemption and ordered th government to change the rules. The government IS currently trying to change the rules, but it is not because of a Supreme Court decision. It’s because many more people are using this exemption than in years past, and a growing portion of the country wants to put a cap on it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/22 "2014-07-24T23:18:52Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > **Alessan** or some of the other Israeli residents that have served would be the best on-board sources, but my understanding is that Jews, the Druze ( a smallish community, somewhat larger in Lebanon ), and the Circassians ( an even tinier ethnic group in Israel, somewhat larger in Jordan ) are all subject to mandatory draft… IIRC only male Druze & Circassians are (at the request of their community leaders) subject to the draft; the only females subject to the draft are Jewish women (& they have more exemptions than men). > [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > …American citizens do not lose citizenship by serving in the IDF. However, I have heard that American citizens were asked to renounce their U.S. citizenship before serving in certain very specific units in the IDF. I do not have a cite handy… Supposedly Israeli sailors serving on submarines have to renounce any other citizenships they have for security reasons related to the nuclear weapons carried by the subs. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/23 "2014-07-25T00:34:44Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Supposedly Israeli sailors serving on submarines have to renounce any other citizenships they have for security reasons related to the nuclear weapons carried by the subs. I am reminded that Jews could not join the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, and foreigners could not become officers. ---
**Author:** ![turner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@turner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turner)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/24 "2014-07-25T01:30:42Z")
Most definitely off topic, but when I was in Israel, it was interesting to note the “uniforms” of female Israeli soldiers. Many wore their uniform pants as low-rise hip huggers, several were spilling out of their blouses, it was like a fashion show. This was in Tel Aviv. Is the idea that as long as they do their service, we don’t care what they look like (no or lax dress code) or is it just that the attitude is, “if they don’t like it, they cn kick me out”? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/25 "2014-07-25T02:12:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I am reminded that Jews could not join the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, and foreigners could not become officers. Jews (and Catholics, and nonconformists) couldn’t get commissions in the Royal Navy. However, there were Jewish sailors in the Royal Navy, and some who we know fought at Trafalgar…Benjamin da Costa on the Temeraire, Moses Benjamin and Joseph Moss on the Victory, Henry Levi, Benjamin Solomon, Joseph and Nathan Manuel on the Brittania, John Benjamin on the Royal Sovereign, Phillip Emmanuel on the Colossus, and Thomas and James Brandon on the Revenge. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/26 "2014-07-25T03:44:38Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > There are not ‘tiny’ numbers of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel! The Tunisian island of Djerba is predominantly Jewish, Tunis itself has a community > Crandolph I understand that even though technically not exempt, Tunisian Jews aren’t called for military service. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/27 "2014-07-25T08:46:57Z")
> [@turner](#): > > Most definitely off topic, but when I was in Israel, it was interesting to note the “uniforms” of female Israeli soldiers. Many wore their uniform pants as low-rise hip huggers, several were spilling out of their blouses, it was like a fashion show. This was in Tel Aviv. Is the idea that as long as they do their service, we don’t care what they look like (no or lax dress code) or is it just that the attitude is, “if they don’t like it, they cn kick me out”? Honestly? It’s because they’re teenagers, and teenagers like to push boundaries. It helps that dress codes are relatively lax compared to other military forces, and the fact that most disciplinary issues are handled in-unit - which means that if their direct commanders thinks soldiers are doing a good job, they’ll protect them from any MP bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/28 "2014-07-25T10:17:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Jews (and Catholics, and nonconformists) couldn’t get commissions in the Royal Navy. However, there were Jewish sailors in the Royal Navy, and some who we know fought at Trafalgar…Benjamin da Costa on the Temeraire, Moses Benjamin and Joseph Moss on the Victory, Henry Levi, Benjamin Solomon, Joseph and Nathan Manuel on the Brittania, John Benjamin on the Royal Sovereign, Phillip Emmanuel on the Colossus, and Thomas and James Brandon on the Revenge. Non Anglicans could not be officers in the English and British forces, until 1778 (Catholics) and early 19th century Jews and 1920’s, Indians and natives. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/29 "2014-07-25T11:30:31Z")
Thank you for fighting ignorance, gentlemen. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/30 "2014-07-25T18:49:14Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Close. More accurate: They believe that such study is so important in God’s eyes, that God will reward their study with peace and security, to a degree commensurate with their devotion and acts. In this light, they see themselves not as exempt from military service, but an active part of it, in the sense that the military wouldn’t be as effective without this help. Interesting, thanks. > [@Keeve](#): > > Yes. But similar things are done by small political voices in _any_ government that needs swing votes. Yes, the Israeli government and earlier iterations of the Italian government were prime examples of how proportional representation hijacks government to the whims of minority parties that barely qualify for members in the legislature. OTOH, when you consider Washington, first-past-the-post probably doesn’t seem much better. Morsi in Egypt, for example, was a shining example of that problem - people fed up with Mubarak had a choice of an Mubarak holdover or a Muslim Brotherhood member in the run-off and had to choose from two bad choices. So both systems have shortcomings. But, the problem in Israel was that parties focussed on limited interests got their way by trading the handful of votes for concessions. > [@Keeve](#): > > It has always been applied and enforced only for those actively studying in such schools. But on a practical level, once someone reaches a certain age (and I don’t know what the cutoff is) he no longer needs this exemption because his age is enough to get him out of serving in the military. The numbers of people who leave school at this point are high enough to suggest that their main motivation was draft evasion rather than religious devotion, but is that much different than the American universities whose enrollment swelled during Vietnam? From This: > **[About the Law Library | Law Library of Congress | Research Centers | Library...](https://www.loc.gov/research-centers/law-library-of-congress/about-this-research-center/)** > > The mission of the Law Library of Congress is to provide > authoritative legal research, reference and instruction services, > and access to an unrivaled collection of U.S., foreign, > comparative, and international law. To accomplish this mission, > the Law... > [@](#): > > The draft deferment has traditionally been extended to yeshiva[1] students who pledge that their sole occupation is the study of the Torah.[2] As such, the deferment constitutes an exception to the compulsory military draft that is generally imposed on all Israeli nationals and permanent residents who have not reached military retirement age.[3] > > The number of eligible deferrals issued under this arrangement has dramatically increased over the years from under 400 a year until 1970,[4] to 800 in 1975,[5] 17,017 in 1987,[6] 26,262 in 1995,[7] 28,772 in 1997,[8] and 61,000 by 2010.[9] The percentage of those enjoying deferments as compared with the total number of persons who were drafted has similarly increased at a steady pace, from 5.4% in 1987 to 6.4% in 1995, 7.4% in 1996, 8% in 1997,[10] and 14% in 2007.[11] 14% exempt due to studying the Torah? Oy vey! > [@Keeve](#): > > The government IS currently trying to change the rules, but it is not because of a Supreme Court decision. It’s because many more people are using this exemption than in years past, and a growing portion of the country wants to put a cap on it. Hmmm… > [@](#): > > On February 21, 2012, almost six years after the issuance of the above decision in Movement for Quality of Government v. Knesset, the Supreme Court, by an extended bench of nine justices, reevaluated the constitutionality of the Tal Law. By a six-to-three majority the Court determined that the Tal Law violated the right to equality and that the Knesset, therefore, could not further extend its application beyond the August 1, 2012, expiration date. > > In her majority opinion, outgoing Court President Dorit Beinish reached the following conclusion: “Time has shown that the Law has not realized the goals on which it was based, and that in reality, the Law has anchored, almost fully, the draft deferment arrangement that existed prior to its enactment.”[37] And the government has been wrestling with crafting a constitutional law since… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/31 "2014-07-25T18:58:38Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > But, the problem in Israel was that parties focussed on limited interests got their way by trading the handful of votes for concessions. Is that not the same as parties in the US Congress adding amendments to get the other side to vote for them? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/32 "2014-07-25T19:26:03Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Is that not the same as parties in the US Congress adding amendments to get the other side to vote for them? No, that’s done by congressmen - party of one. (or more logically, it goes to the highest bidder). Don’t want to turn this into a proportional representation debate. I’m not saying either side is better or worse, both have their flaws. The flaw in the Israeli parliament that is most prominent is that small religious parties tend to have a singular focus, and less concern about the 360-degree plethora of problems that affect any modern society. (Think Tea Party too) They will trade their support to whoever satisfies their singular demands. In the Knesset, as I understood it, this translated into an exemption primarily for the people who were supporters of those parties. This is where and how an exemption for a few for religious studies turned into almost a blanket exemption of 14% of draftees. (It also translated - if I read the news right - into the top decision-makers for religious issues being mainly very strictly orthodox rabbis appointed at the demand of these parties, excluding many of the reformed Rabbis until recently.) ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/33 "2014-07-25T21:15:17Z")
> **[Stories of Israeli Arab Soldiers in the IDF | United with Israel](https://unitedwithisrael.org/stories-of-israeli-arab-soldiers-in-the-idf/)** > > Although the Israel Defense Forces is mainly a Jewish army, it also includes Israeli Arabs who are proudly making a valuable contribution both to their people and to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174/34 "2014-07-26T19:49:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Honestly? It’s because they’re teenagers, and teenagers like to push boundaries. > > It helps that dress codes are relatively lax compared to other military forces, and the fact that most disciplinary issues are handled in-unit - which means that if their direct commanders thinks soldiers are doing a good job, they’ll protect them from any MP bullshit. It must depend on the infraction. My daughter tells me there were girls in her unit who did receive punishments, depending on how egregious the infraction was. I see that MPs hang around the major transportation hubs (bus stations in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, and the Tel Aviv train stations), and I’ve seen them writing citations for the kids who had problems with dressing up to standard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-israeli-armed-forces/261174.md?page=1)