# Service in the US Military is immoral **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506 "2012-10-02T18:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/1 "2012-10-02T18:07:59Z")
I am posting this here because I started this topic on another thread and was told it would be better to make it it’s own thread… Service in the US Military is wrong because the military is used to enforce American political agenda. America has a long track record here and everyone knows it. One can make the argument that we have had legitimate motives but I disagree. Take for example Vietnam. All the bombs we dropped on North Vietnam and all the people we killed take away any pretext we have of “doing it for their benefit”. In fact, it is this type of propaganda, whatever reasons are given for invading a country, ie, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, the very reasons themself, even if they have a “legitimate” connotation, wind up being absorbed into the propaganda machine. Of course we need a military to defend ourselves but given the track record of the US Military, if you sign up, you are simply making yourself a pawn for this machine. Knowingly and willingly. I realize there are “grey areas” here but I am not concerned with that because none of these grey areas are sufficient to excuse putting oneself at the employ of a Military that has such a clear record of invading weaker nations for political gain. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/2 "2012-10-02T18:10:43Z")
I serve in the Canadian military, and I respect your choice to I assume not serve in _any_ country’s military, but I disagree with your premise. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/3 "2012-10-02T18:12:57Z")
Do you believe that the US military alone has driven US foreign policy? How about all those elected politicians that order the military in? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/4 "2012-10-02T18:14:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I serve in the Canadian military, and I respect your choice to I assume not serve in _any_ country’s military, but I disagree with your premise. Please be more specific. To me it’s clear cut. There is room for ambiguity in many areas of life but not when it leads you to be involved in invading other countries. No amount of grey area can excuse that. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/5 "2012-10-02T18:17:02Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Do you believe that the US military alone has driven US foreign policy? I suppose this is a valid question but regardless of the answer the fact remains that the military is used to invade weaker countries for political gain. Examining the causes behind this do not change the inherent immorality of doing so. > [@](#): > > How about all those elected politicians that order the military in? They are just as guilty if not more so ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/6 "2012-10-02T18:17:56Z")
How about the people who vote for those politicians? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/7 "2012-10-02T18:19:29Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Please be more specific. To me it’s clear cut. There is room for ambiguity in many areas of life but not when it leads you to be involved in invading other countries. No amount of grey area can excuse that. Well, your issue is with the civilian leadership, then, not the military as such. You may as well be arguing that it’s immoral to vote for either of the two major parties, given their track record of ordering the military to invade places. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/8 "2012-10-02T18:30:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, your issue is with the civilian leadership, then, not the military as such. You may as well be arguing that it’s immoral to vote for either of the two major parties, given their track record of ordering the military to invade places. No, it is not. You are talking about the “grey area”. People sign up for the military knowing all this controversy exists. These debates, these complications, do not give one moral license to go and join a military that has a clear record of invading weaker nations. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/9 "2012-10-02T18:30:57Z")
I don’t think the OP understands what military forces are for. Possibly he has succumbed to a bit of propaganda himself, beginning with the change of names from Secretary of War to Secretary of Defense. The original title was more honest, and the somewhat obfuscatory current title didn’t come about until 1947. Von Clausewitz said that war is the continuation of politics by other means, and I think most people understand that. Countries enter wars to further their political aims. The United States is not unique in this regard, just a bit more capable and prolific in recent history. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/10 "2012-10-02T18:32:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How about the people who vote for those politicians? They are wrong too but that is also beside the point. One wrong does not mitigate the other. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/11 "2012-10-02T18:33:41Z")
If they’re as wrong as people who serve in the military, that means that those in the military are no worse than over half of the public. That’s not so bad. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/12 "2012-10-02T18:33:43Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I don’t think the OP understands what military forces are for. Possibly he has succumbed to a bit of propaganda himself, beginning with the change of names from Secretary of War to Secretary of Defense. The original title was more honest, and the somewhat obfuscatory current title didn’t come about until 1947. > > Von Clausewitz said that war is the continuation of politics by other means, and I think most people understand that. Countries enter wars to further their political aims. The United States is not unique in this regard, just a bit more capable and prolific in recent history. On the contrary, I think you are the one Obfuscating the matter. You can call it war or you can call it diplomacy. I call it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/13 "2012-10-02T18:35:43Z")
To take the quintessential example, do you believe it was wrong to serve in the American military during WWII? How about Afghanistan now? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/14 "2012-10-02T18:36:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If they’re as wrong as people who serve in the military, that means that those in the military are no worse than over half of the public. That’s not so bad. Please don’t think I am not listening to you. I hear what you are saying. But there is a clear difference. Voting for politicians or voting for wars is wrong. Of course it is. But actually being part of the force that invades a weaker nation is even worse. Much worse. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/15 "2012-10-02T18:37:06Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Please don’t think I am not listening to you. I hear what you are saying. > > But there is a clear difference. Voting for politicians or voting for wars is wrong. Of course it is. But actually being part of the force that invades a weaker nation is even worse. Much worse. Why? Having someone do something for you is better than doing something yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/16 "2012-10-02T18:37:21Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, it is not. You are talking about the “grey area”. People sign up for the military knowing all this controversy exists. These debates, these complications, do not give one moral license to go and join a military that has a clear record of invading weaker nations. It just seems to me your wroth is directed at the wrong people. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/17 "2012-10-02T18:39:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > To take the quintessential example, do you believe it was wrong to serve in the American military during WWII? How about Afghanistan now? > > Regards, > Shodan Ah!!! This is exactly the type of rhetoric that I despise. (not you personally, the rhetoric). Yes, of course there are legitimate uses for the US military. But this quickly becomes a recruiting and propaganda tool and looses all credibility. We’re not talking about the theory of the issue. We are talking about how the US Military is actually deployed. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/18 "2012-10-02T18:40:29Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, it is not. You are talking about the “grey area”. People sign up for the military knowing all this controversy exists. These debates, these complications, do not give one moral license to go and join a military that has a clear record of invading weaker nations. Where are you getting this nonsense from? A military isn’t inherently good or evil. It’s like a knife, it can be used to either effect. And keep in mind, even in a cartoon view of the world, if a military is not there to possibly do bad things, it is not there to also do good things. Very good things. YEESH! ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/19 "2012-10-02T18:41:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It just seems to me your wroth is directed at the wrong people. And it seems to me that you have an appalling lack of view concerning personal accountability and fundamental right and wrong. (I’m criticizing your views here, not you personally) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/20 "2012-10-02T18:43:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Where are you getting this nonsense from? A military isn’t inherently good or evil. It’s like a knife, it can be used to either effect. And keep in mind, even in a cartoon view of the world, if a military is not there to possibly do bad things, it is not there to also do good things. Very good things. > > YEESH! YEESH! indeed It is wrong, completely wrong, with no grey area, to willingly offer yourself as the hand that wields the knife. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506.md?page=2)