# Service in the US Military is immoral **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506 "2012-10-02T18:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/201 "2012-10-05T18:33:45Z")
I’m pretty open about my dislike of America’s meddling in foreign affairs - not out of some love or shrine I built to Michael Moore, rather cause I get what the forefather’s were saying…entangling alliances and all that. If you can’t grasp what they were onto, then well the Constitution isn’t for you. There’s not one war since the Civil one that I can justify - in the sense that America was needed, nay duty bound to be involved. Though, regardless, to claim a soldier’s willingness to be just that, a soldier, as _immoral_ smacks of so open to argument through analogy-example alone, I believe it’s been covered. I would only add that I call this a legislation and leadership issue…and as possibly pointed out…not all military go to war or even leave the country. See reference … : Canada ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/202 "2012-10-07T19:37:58Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I tend to somewhat agree with the OP.This. America _as a nation_ is immoral. The military is an expression of the popular will. Well, if you extend that to include any nation that uses its military for aggression, I will agree. I would like to recast what the OP said, since I believe there’s a large grain of truth in it. It’s not the US military. It’s _every_ military. I think what the OP is getting at is that sublimating your own moral judgment to someone else or to an institution is morally questionable at best. The American military and I presume most other militaries teach their soldiers something about ethics and illegal orders. But we all know that it’s extremely difficult to disobey orders, legal or not, in military culture, and especially so for kids that age. I think many of us would agree that the invasion of Iraq was the start of an immoral war, and a significant part of the population knew it at the time. If all of us were truly exercising independent moral judgment, we would’ve seen a lot more soldiers refusing to participate, deserting, or resigning. It just didn’t happen. Not with the kids who were recently enlisted, and not with the generals and top civilians in the Pentagon who had a much better picture of what was going on. That’s not an American thing, it’s not even especially a military thing. It’s really a human thing. For some reason we want to be led, we want to put our trust in someone, we want someone else to make the hard decisions for all of us. Once we allow that, it becomes many times harder to step back and say “no”. To say “no” is a betrayal of those who we put our faith in, and of our own judgment because we chose to put our faith in them. But the other side of this trait has allowed humanity to achieve so many great things. We build roads across continents, we build huge projects to benefit society and our communities, we invest in and develop new technologies and new businesses, all because we put our trust in someone else’s vision. It is perhaps both the greatest strength and the greatest weakness of our species. With it we may end up in _1984_. Without it, we might be a world of anarchists constantly at war with our neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/203 "2012-10-07T19:43:21Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > …I would only add that I call this a legislation and leadership issue..and as possibly pointed out..not all military go to war or even leave the country. See reference .. : Canada Hmmm. Canada was at war with Germany two years before the US was, and I don’t know how many thousands of Canadians left the country to fight, but… every single one of them that fought did so abroad. And you can’t justify one single war the US fought since the civil war, including WWII? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/204 "2012-10-07T23:17:02Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Lets also say that she takes a desk job, for example she is involved in the purchase of weapons, ammunition, and other equipment, and making sure they are supplied to the soldiers on the front line. She, personally, never fires a single weapon in her career, and comes nowhere near combat. But the weapons she buys are used in combat many times, and kill a lot of people, some of them insurgents, and a lot of innocent people too. > [@Trinopus](#): > > What, exactly, does this mean? Yes, she is morally responsible for her actions. She is not morally responsible for the actions of others. Did she, at any point, commit an illegal act? Was she given orders illegal under U.S. law, or even under international law? Perhaps you didn’t understand what was written. The answers you have given don’t bear any relation to what I asked. I did not say anything at all about illegal orders or misconduct. I’m talking about ordinary soldiers following their legal orders. Maybe you can try answering the questions. > [@](#): > > Otherwise, again, where does the moral fault stop? I voted for the guys who funded the war, and yet you’ve said I’m not responsible. You’re confusing me with someone else. I did not have any such conversation with you. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/205 "2012-10-08T05:43:44Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > . . . Maybe you can try answering the questions. . . . I did answer your questions. You appear not to agree with my answers, but claiming that I didn’t answer them is slovenly debate technique. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/206 "2012-10-08T05:45:02Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Well with respect I disagree. His approach is ‘I’m right you’re wrong, they’re evil, la la la I’m not listening’. His stance has been probed and been found to be full of logical flaws and contradictions, which haven’t been addressed. He has proven you correct; I withdraw any support for his approach. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/207 "2012-10-08T10:20:40Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I did answer your questions. You appear not to agree with my answers, but claiming that I didn’t answer them is slovenly debate technique. Your answers had nothing to do with my questions. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/208 "2012-10-10T22:00:35Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Okay, folks, lets take a hypothetical example. Just suppose that a few years ago there was a teenage American woman. The Iraq war has been going on a while. She has heard about it on the news, heard stories about how innocent people keep on getting mistaken form insurgents, and dying. She does not approve of the war at all, seeing it as pointless and unjust. > > She wishes to go to college, but doesn’t have the money. But the military offers to pay for her college if she enlists. So, setting aside her own personal objection to the war, she agrees to participate in it. > > Lets also say that she takes a desk job, for example she is involved in the purchase of weapons, ammunition, and other equipment, and making sure they are supplied to the soldiers on the front line. She, personally, never fires a single weapon in her career, and comes nowhere near combat. But the weapons she buys are used in combat many times, and kill a lot of people, some of them insurgents, and a lot of innocent people too. > > Now in that hypothetical situation, I have several questions for you all to consider. > > Firstly, should we hold her morally accountable for the killings. > > I say yes. It seems to me that she has made them possible, she is at least an accomplice in several thousand deaths. > > Secondly, are her actions moral? > > I see her as an evil person. Her actions are totally selfish and callous. She is a person with complete disregard for other people’s lives. She places her own wish to go tol college over the lives of thousands of other people. > > Third, when her morality is called into question, she starts talking about patriotism, serving her country, and protecting us. Is this not totally hypocritical of her? She isn’t doing it for the good of her country. She isn’t trying to protect you and me. Her actions \*might \*protect us, but that’s not any part of her motivation. > > Fourth, Bryan seems to be implying that this sort of attitude is extremely common in recruits. Is he right, or are people joining up just for free college in the minority? > > One other thing, if she uses the excuse “I don’t get to choose which wars I fight in” is that a valid excuse? > > I say no. She knew about the war when she joined. She could see that she probably would have to participate in it. She made the concious choice to be a part of it. She did, in fact, choose to be part of that war. Any of you military folk or apologists care to give an answer to this one? Just to be clear, I’m talking about soldiers obeying legal orders. I said nothing at all about illegal acts of others, or wrongdoing on the front lines. Dunno where Trinopus got that bit from, but he completely misunderstood the question. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/209 "2012-10-10T22:22:20Z")
I cannot comment on any real person’s morality (as I believe morality is too subjective to be a useful measurement of benefit to society) , but the young lady as you created her is clearly immoral for joining the military against her personal beliefs and then lying about her motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/210 "2012-10-11T17:50:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Hmmm. Canada was at war with Germany two years before the US was, and I don’t know how many thousands of Canadians left the country to fight, but… every single one of them that fought did so abroad. > > And you can’t justify one single war the US fought since the civil war, including WWII? That was more of a poke at fence sitting countries. We are all very grateful for Canada’s involvement in all theaters of World War II - and they did not get a lot of respect for it sadly. No I do not justify America’s involvement in World War II. Pearl Harbor is an issue that could have been exclusive and separate from the war front in Europe. War in Europe wasn’t our problem - we made it our problem. After our bombing run in Japan, that should have been the end of our involvement or more importantly should have been our ONLY involvement in any foreign war. Let’s circle this around from another angle. Hitler made three irrevocable mistakes A) Not taking more military advisement from his generals B) Invading Poland, as opposed to just passing through and working an agreement for the use of the Polish ‘corridor’ It’s most likely Poland would have been plenty happy for the Germans to waltz by en route to Russia (which should have been his first and only real hard target) C) Invading France. Despite France declaring war on Germany for invading Poland, Hitler should have just laughed it off and let them declare all they wanted. It wasn’t as if France was a real threat. By actually going into France, Britain started mobilizing. The point of this is that had Hitler not done these things, war would have primarily been between Russia and Germany. America would not have needed to be indirectly involved by supplying England with additional rations because England would have most likely stayed out of it all. It was clear Americans were reluctant to get involved, and despite wanting vengeance for Pearl Harbor, they certainly were not in favor of the fight in Europe. It’s even speculated that had Americans known the truth about the government supplying armaments and rations to the English, that there may have been riots and serious blow-back .. this is of course does not apply to World War I(that was something that civilians did want. They pushed for it and got it sadly). I will always believe that had things transpired differently, England and more importantly America would not have been involved in the war in Europe and Hitler would have left well alone. Trade routes would have been only temporarily slowed and we wouldn’t hear from them for many years. America’s involvement in the war may have stopped the Nazi dominance, but WWI and II opened the doors for so many other negative things… -Geneva convention -The turning point of America’s policing of the world politically, morally and financially. -Increased ties to foreign nation’s government policies, dictations and economies. -Dependency and expectancy by other nations. -Increased immigration without check. Despite their dislike of England, the forefathers might have literally scoffed at the idea of helping countries across the ocean in matters of war and economy. Why should it been our concern? And despite my dislike of what the original author was suggesting with his question about service in the military being immoral, I would highly question one’s personal morality and furthering personality, if they joined voluntarily into the U.S. military knowing that each war America involves themselves in, just digs us a bigger hole. As far as I’m concerned, the only wars America had a right to was the Revolutionary and Civil wars. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/211 "2012-10-11T22:56:32Z")
Are you not aware that Germany declared war on the US, not the other way around? Or should Roosevelt have “laughed off” the declaration? It is laughable that the Poles would simply let the Germans “pass through” on their way to attack Russia. Germany and Russia made a deal to split Poland up between them. It is laughable that Hitler could afford to “laugh off” a declaration of war from France. France had more tanks than Germany and hundreds of thousands of soldiers right on the German border. All those German generals that you think Hitler should have listened to feared a war with France greatly. The American public knew quite well that the US was supporting the UK over Germany. Show me a cite about what was being kept secret? How exactly were the Geneva Conventions bad? Also, two of the four were signed before WWI, so the wars didn’t exactly start up the process. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/212 "2012-10-11T23:44:02Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > That was more of a poke at fence sitting countries. Yeah, real fence sitters those [Canadians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War#Fatalities), never leaving the country.:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Since February 2002, 158 Canadian soldiers have died in the war in Afghanistan or in support of the war. Of these, 123 were due to hostile circumstances, including 95 due to improvised explosive devices (IED) or landmines, 21 due to rocket-propelled grenade, small arms or mortar fire, 11 due to suicide bomb attacks, and one died falling from a high ground position on a cliff during a combat operation that involved firefight. An additional 22 soldiers have died in accidents or other non-combat circumstances; 7 due to “friendly fire”, 6 in vehicle accidents, two in an accidental helicopter crash, 2 from accidental falls, 2 from accidental gunshots, 1 suicide death and 2 unspecified non-combat-related deaths in country. Additionally, one unspecified non-combat-related death occurred at a support base in the Persian Gulf. **Canada has suffered the third-highest absolute number of deaths of any nation among the foreign military participants, and the highest casualties per capita of all coalition members since the beginning of the war.** [60][61] More than 2000 soldiers were injured during the war between April 2002 to December 2011. 635 soldiers were injured in action while 1412 were injured in patrol or non combat situation. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/213 "2012-10-12T10:00:15Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > No I do not justify America’s involvement in World War II. Pearl Harbor is an issue that could have been exclusive and separate from the war front in Europe. War in Europe wasn’t our problem - we made it our problem. Er, actually, Hitler made it your problem. He declared war on America, not the other way round. > [@](#): > > After our bombing run in Japan, that should have been the end of our involvement or more importantly should have been our ONLY involvement in any foreign war. Ah, right. So what, after Hitler’s declaration of war America should have just come to a deal with one of the most evil dictators in history? And after Hitler’s eventual defeat at the hands of the British and Soviets, and the unveiling of the Holocaust, America is _really_ going to be lauded as a moral country for doing a deal with such people. > [@](#): > > Let’s circle this around from another angle. > Hitler made three irrevocable mistakes > > The point of this is that had Hitler not done these things, war would have primarily been between Russia and Germany. > America would not have needed to be indirectly involved by supplying England with additional rations because England would have most likely stayed out of it all. So your argument is that America’s involvement in World War 2 is immoral because Hitler didn’t fight the war logically? Again: you realise America was dragged into the European war - it didn’t volunteer to go in? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506.md?page=10)