# Service in the US Military is immoral **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506 "2012-10-02T18:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/81 "2012-10-02T20:16:49Z")
Speaking as someone who served (in the Navy), I disagree with the OP (surprise surprise!). But I’ve always known there are people who think that what I did was immoral. I’ve even known a few who have challenged me on it face-to-face. It’s nothing new to me, and it doesn’t bother me. I’m pretty confident that, while I’ve made plenty of mistakes in my life, I committed no morally indefensible acts while I was in the Navy. How do you know if I did anything wrong? How could you know, unless you were a witness? I joined the Navy because I thought it was the best career option at the time, because I like ships and traveling, and because I wanted to do something interesting and valuable. It was the right decision, though I’m glad that I completed my service and am now a civilian. But seriously- what did I do that was morally wrong? What action did I take? Was it a form I signed? An oath I swore? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/82 "2012-10-02T20:16:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m simply saying there is no moral equivocation here. My frustration is that the “it’s a complex issue” side of the debate is exactly the type of reasoning that lets people get away with their immoral, wrong, behavior. It sure sounds like you don’t have good responses to the points that other people make, so you think they are morally deficient. It’s funny how arguments from moral certitude and arguments from laziness are sometimes indistinguishable. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/83 "2012-10-02T20:17:19Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > What is the difference between someone who joined the Army in 1942, 1970, 1991 and 2005? Or, more relevantly, between somebody who joined the military in 2001 and somebody who joined in 2003. A person might have joined the military in 2001 because America had been attacked by a foreign enemy and that person felt it was morally justified to fight a war against that enemy. (The OP has said he feels the war in Afghanistan is justified.) But two years later, that same person is being told he’s going to be deployed to Iraq, a war he feels is not justified. What’s his moral responsibility here? He joined to support what he felt was a moral cause. Is he responsible if he is then sent to fight for a different cause - one which didn’t exist at the time he joined? ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/84 "2012-10-02T20:26:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > My frustration is this: > > I put myself in the place of and Iraqi business owner who had their shop destroyed in a firefight. My shop is now destroyed. I don’t care about Americas. I puy myself in the place of an American embassy that had their consulate destroyed and four people including the ambassador assassinated in an RPG attack. I don’t care about Arab or Muslim sensitivities… From the AP: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) - Small teams of special operations forces arrived at American embassies throughout North Africa in the months before militants launched the fiery attack that killed the U.S. ambassador in Libya. The soldiers’ mission: Set up a network that could quickly strike a terrorist target or rescue a hostage. The White House signed off a year ago on the plan to build the new military counterterror task force in the region, and the advance teams have been there for six months, according to three U.S. counterterror officials and a former intelligence official. All spoke only on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the strategy publicly. A well-funded, well-equipped, well-manned, well-trained military enables this type foreign policy initiative. Too bad they didn’t get organized quickly enough to stop that Libya fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/85 "2012-10-02T20:27:25Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m simply saying there is no moral equivocation here. My frustration is that the “it’s a complex issue” side of the debate is exactly the type of reasoning that lets people get away with their immoral, wrong, behavior. I repeat the example of a business owner how had their business destroyed by gun fire. Do you really think he wants to hear about the complicated reasons? Or maybe people say “it’s complicated” not as a way to excuse their immoral behavior, but because…_it’s complicated_. Every war has innocent bystanders who get hurt, even the wars you said in the other thread were justified. If you were to explain to someone why those wars were justified and the other person could not get past the fact that innocent people were hurt and called any other discussion of the topic just a bunch of excuses for immoral behavior (“What about the Berlin businessman? Do you think he wants to hear your reasons why his shop was bombed?”)…you’d end up thinking that person was kind of silly, or unserious. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/86 "2012-10-02T21:15:47Z")
The OP simply wishes to establish justification for his irrational beliefs on war and the military. If he can’t do it here, I think he’s SOL. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/87 "2012-10-02T21:19:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I am posting this here because I started this topic on another thread and was told it would be better to make it it’s own thread… > Service in the US Military is wrong because the military is used to enforce American political agenda. America has a long track record here and everyone knows it. One can make the argument that we have had legitimate motives but I disagree. Take for example Vietnam. All the bombs we dropped on North Vietnam and all the people we killed take away any pretext we have of “doing it for their benefit”. > > In fact, it is this type of propaganda, whatever reasons are given for invading a country, ie, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, the very reasons themself, even if they have a “legitimate” connotation, wind up being absorbed into the propaganda machine. > > Of course we need a military to defend ourselves but given the track record of the US Military, if you sign up, you are simply making yourself a pawn for this machine. Knowingly and willingly. I realize there are “grey areas” here but I am not concerned with that because none of these grey areas are sufficient to excuse putting oneself at the employ of a Military that has such a clear record of invading weaker nations for political gain. Ok, so please tell us why you think people who served in the US military in the 1940s were immoral. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/88 "2012-10-02T21:30:47Z")
Noam Chomsky: > [@](#): > > In fact, one of the, maybe the most, elementary of moral principles is that of universality, that is, If something’s right for me, it’s right for you; if it’s wrong for you, it’s wrong for me. Any moral code that is even worth looking at has that at its core somehow. So by the OP’s reasoning, a military even repelling an enemy invasion of our own country is immoral because that would be bad for them. If you accept that there are bad people in this world, and they may on occasion get together and confront other groups in violent ways, then war is inevitable. Military forces must necessarily prevail. And morality can be objectively applied by rational people, during the conflict. People not recognizing the complexities and distinctions involved might get confused. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/89 "2012-10-02T21:39:53Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m simply saying there is no moral equivocation here. My frustration is that the “it’s a complex issue” side of the debate is exactly the type of reasoning that lets people get away with their immoral, wrong, behavior. I repeat the example of a business owner how had their business destroyed by gun fire. Do you really think he wants to hear about the complicated reasons? How do you feel about people who join a police force? I can understand the frustration of a shop keeper who’s store was destroyed when a criminal, fleeing a drug bust, gets destroyed in an ensueing gunfight, but I don’t blame the police officers. And yet, the police are enforcing American policy about drugs. Do you despise the Ambassador and embasssy staff who, while not using guns, uses words to promote US foreign policy, which may include actions like embargos which result in hardships. How about the private security that protects them (2 of the 3 dead in Libya were formar SEALs working as consultants). I can understand your frustration and distaste for war and it’s effects, but I think that your understanding of who is responsible is overly simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/90 "2012-10-02T21:40:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > For example, please explain whether paying taxes to the US Government is more immoral, just as immoral, or not quite as immoral as serving in the military. Speaking for myself, I like to think that my tax money bought something like 5-10 500 lb bombs, or 1 JDAM or tens of thousands of rounds of small arms ammunition, rather than being donated to some third-world shithole. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/91 "2012-10-02T21:47:15Z")
If we don’t take action against bad things, we’re immoral because have the power to stop them. If we do take action against bad things, we’re immoral because we shouldn’t interfere in other people’s business. When you’re young, you think you know everything because you know a lot about the very small amount of the world that you know anything about. As you get older, you sometimes realize that the world is a very big, very complex place and you don’t know very much at all. If Robert163 is a Christian, he might want to read Romans 2 before he spends the rest of his life trying to feel morally superior to everyone else. If he’s not a Christian, then he may want to consider that no one else is really required to give a fuck what he thinks about anything and trying to wave one’s moral superiority over others only ensures that you are neither moral nor superior. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/92 "2012-10-02T22:29:15Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I think that from Japan’s point of view the attack fit von Clausewitz’s statement about war perfectly: politics by other means. Nitpick: this isn’t what Clausewitz actually wrote. From John Keegan’s [A History of Warfare](http://books.google.com/books?id=l9rsAw3NLDQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false): > [@](#): > > Clausewitz, a Prussian veteran of the Napoleonic wars who used his years of retirement to compose what was destined to become the most famous book on war – called _On War_ – ever written, actually wrote that war is the continuation ‘of political intercourse’ (_des politischen Verkehrs_) ‘with the intermixing of other means’ (_mit Einmischung anderer Mittel_). The original German expresses a more subtle and complex idea than the English words in which it is so frequently quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/93 "2012-10-03T00:11:50Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Speaking for myself, I like to think that my tax money bought something like 5-10 500 lb bombs, or 1 JDAM or tens of thousands of rounds of small arms ammunition, rather than being donated to some third-world shithole. Since 19% of our federal budget goes to Defense and only 1% to foreign aid, (the vast majority paid to US arms manufacturers who simply donate their wares to other countries) you can sleep easy tonight knowing only about a fifth of one cent on the dollar of your tax money goes to food and medical supplies for those third-world shitholes. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/94 "2012-10-03T00:18:58Z")
Is it still immoral to have served as a mechanic at an airfield in Montana? Or does a serviceman need to see actual combat to be evil? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/95 "2012-10-03T02:11:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It is necessary for a nation to have a military. That would, then, make it moral since it’s necessary. So what, exactly, are you advocating here? Do you expect every nation to have a 100% unmanned military? Hopefully a “passing mod” as someone suggested upthread will move this lame rant of yours to the BBQ Pit. There it should receive the treatment it’s due. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/96 "2012-10-03T02:36:00Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Is it still immoral to have served as a mechanic at an airfield in Montana? Or does a serviceman need to see actual combat to be evil? If (which I don’t personally believe!) the military is evil, then, yeah, simply by being a part of it, you’d be enabling the bad bits. You didn’t beat up prisoners in Abu Ghraib. You didn’t even replace the guy who replaced the guy who did get sent there to do that. But maybe, at some point, you repaired the plane that carried him there. What I can’t see is how this ever stops? I voted for a guy who voted to fund the war. I pay taxes that help fund the war. I buy gasoline that’s a little bit cheaper because of the U.S. presence in the Gulf of Arabia. I live in a city that was stolen from Mexico by naked force of aggression (San Diego. And, well, kinda. A warship sailed in, and the flags were changed. There was a tiny little battle, some miles away, which was pretty much inconsequential.) Hell, we took the whole damn continent from people who had a much better legal claim to it than we did. We just shouldered 'em aside, and killed 'em when they tried to resist. If the entire world followed laws of perfect morality…um… I think about 7 billion of us would never even have been born in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/97 "2012-10-03T07:51:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, America’s complicated internal political structure probably doesn’t matter one bit to the vast majority of American military recruits, who are looking for a job, finance for college, a bit of challenge/adventure… and yet you’re calling them immoral - no grey to it whatsoever. That’s kind of the whole problem. The idea of going to fight in a pointless war like Iraq, just for college money, or because they want thrills, is disgusting to me. What you have described there is a thug for hire. And they ARE immoral. Now, if think the conflict is a necessary and justified one, and that is their major motivation for joining the fight, that’d be different. I could respect that. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/98 "2012-10-03T08:20:11Z")
Seems like the OP has made up his mind and is not actually _looking_ for a discussion, merely (im)patiently expecting everyone to suddenly see the light and join his fold. We can all agree militaries are highly vulnerable to doing immoral things - that’s _all_ armies, ever. But they also prevent a lot of bad stuff as peacekeeping forces and civil protection. As much as I opposed the Iraq War, I would wager the Coalition forces saved the lives of more Iraqis than they ended up killing. The OP seems to have zero appreciation of what modern warfare is like. It’s an incredibly stressful experience for a soldier on the ground, who, in the middle of a firefight, has to choose between shooting someone who _may_ be on the brink of throwing a grenade at his fellow soldiers to kill them all, or _may_ just be a panicking civilian caught in the firefight. It takes a lot of training and a cool head to make that call. It’s also _impossible_ that people will always get it right. People die. It’s the nature of things. It’s not an excuse, just an observation. As that US soldier, what do you think he’d rather do? Save his friends who he has bonded with on the tour, or tell their greaving families ‘I chose not to shoot, because I didn’t know until it was too late that they were in danger’. Given those circumstances, I can totally appreciate their predicament. The OP seems to assume every civilian casualty is down to steroided, Call of Duty fanatics playing Metallica in a Lockheed AC-130 not giving a damn about the lives of those they are firing at. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/99 "2012-10-03T08:36:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What I can’t see is how this ever stops? I voted for a guy who voted to fund the war. This question has already come up. Are all who voted for Bush responsible for the Iraq war? I don’t think so. They voted for someone they thought wouldn’t do such things. They didn’t vote to go to war specifically. The American people is not as much in charge as they would like to think. It’s not as if the US is a democracy. In the sense that the citizens make policy. No, you are ruled by an elite. It is them that make the decisions and sell you their policies after they have been decided. Often through blatant propaganda. So, no I don’t hold the average American responsible for the actions of it’s government. > [@](#): > > I pay taxes that help fund the war. I buy gasoline that’s a little bit cheaper because of the U.S. presence in the Gulf of Arabia. I live in a city that was stolen from Mexico by naked force of aggression (San Diego. And, well, kinda. A warship sailed in, and the flags were changed. There was a tiny little battle, some miles away, which was pretty much inconsequential.) Hell, we took the whole damn continent from people who had a much better legal claim to it than we did. We just shouldered 'em aside, and killed 'em when they tried to resist. Again, how much of this are _you_ responsible for? Were you in on the planning of this. Did you take part in the conquest? Yes, you profit from the evil deeds of your government and it’s militairy. But at least _you_ have a conscience and unless you actually condone these kind of actions you are morally OK. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/100 "2012-10-03T08:39:15Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So, no I don’t hold the average American responsible for the actions of it’s government. Even though they re-elected Bush in 2004, _after_ the invasion? Do you not consider that assent to his actions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506.md?page=6)