# Service in the US Military is immoral **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506 "2012-10-02T18:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/141 "2012-10-03T13:17:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > it is clear that there can be “extenuating circumstances” that make it moral to join the military, Well yes Sweden has a reasonable track record. I could join that army reasonably safe in the knowledge that I wouldn’t be used as a tool to subject smaller weaker nations. Of course there are armies around the world where they join just to, you know, DEFEND your country. The US army? not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/142 "2012-10-03T13:19:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe that military action in WWII and Afghanistan was justified? If you think it was justified, then it is clear that there can be “extenuating circumstances” that make it moral to join the military, or to invade smaller weaker nations. > > Regards, > Shodan Two justified wars do not excuse a string of bad ones. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/143 "2012-10-03T13:33:18Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Two justified wars do not excuse a string of bad ones. So you think it would be immoral to join the US military no matter what. How then is it possible to wage even a justified war, as in Afghanistan or WWII? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/144 "2012-10-03T13:35:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If invading another country is wrong you don’t get a pass for doing because some general or politician told you too. Wrong is wrong. Your position is well stated, but you’ve yet to support it logically. Simply asserting something over and over won’t give it any more weight. Though I doubt this will get through, I’ll post a few simple rebuttals and catches to your argument and see what you come up with. 1. _Invading another country is wrong._ Really? Every time? There is NEVER any moral justification for intervention? If that is true, then you are supposing a few things automatically along with that position. The right to sovereignty trumps the \*generally \* recognized human right to life, that no genocide, no internationally illegal weapons production, no condition so hostile to human dignity exists that there is never moral justification for the use of force. 2. However, you seem to only take issue with what you deem immoral, so in your world, everyone should stop working or participating as soon as they deem the situation to be ethically suspect. There are inherent problems with that action that you are either unable,(or far more likely), unwilling to acknowledge. a. A military is dependent upon all of the positions acting in concert as much as possible. The soldiers on the ground depend upon the doctors, mechanics, pilots, loadmasters, cargo guys, computer techs, and the vast number of other support personnel who make their various missions possible. If even a few of these people decide to abandon their duty, the whole thing can grind to a dangerous halt. Their moral action **directly** endangers the rest of their countrymen, is that itself not an immoral action? Surely you are not arguing that their participation in an ethically suspect mission is _deserving_ of a sentence of abandonment and (likely) death in a foreign land. b. Assuming you agree that endangering others is also immoral, how do we determine which action is the least immoral? c. It has been pointed out to you that military does not act on it’s own but at the behest of our elected officials whose job it is to represent OUR interests. You still have not replied even remotely adequately to this point. It isn’t an issue of personal responsibility to one’s ethics, it is a valid question of simple political mechanics. A country has to have a military to defend it’s interests. You’ve agreed as much earlier. Who does the military have to take orders from? if it’s only accountable to itself then it is no longer serving the country, it is nothing more than a heavily armed group of thugs enforcing THEIR ethical view by force. Which brings us back full circle to determining HOW we know when an action is justified. Show your work. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/145 "2012-10-03T13:35:49Z")
Okay Robert163. If we grant that a volunteer serviceman, following the legal orders of his lawful superiors (who are also acting upon the direction of the duly constituted civilian authorities) can still be performing immoral acts, my follow-up question is “So?” Are you proposing a punishment, or do you just want them to feel bad? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/146 "2012-10-03T13:39:47Z")
**Robert163** : in the other thread (which I just looked through, oy vey) you listed military actions that you consider moral or immoral. However, that’s a very abbreviated list of instances of the use of the military. Perhaps you could comment on these recent uses of the armed forces? Moral or immoral? > [@](#): > > 1989 - Philippines. On December 2, 1989, President Bush reported that on December 1 U.S. fighter planes from Clark Air Base in the Philippines had assisted the Aquino government to repel a coup attempt. In addition, 100 marines were sent from the U.S. Navy base at Subic Bay to protect the U.S. Embassy in Manila. > > 1990 - Saudi Arabia. On August 9, 1990, President Bush reported that he had ordered the forward deployment of substantial elements of the U.S. Armed Forces into the Persian Gulf region to help defend Saudi Arabia after the August 2 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. > > 1991 - Iraq. On May 17, 1991, President Bush stated in a status report to Congress that the Iraqi repression of the Kurdish people had necessitated a limited introduction of U.S. forces into northern Iraq for emergency relief purposes. > > 1991 - Zaire. On September 25-27, 1991, after widespread looting and rioting broke out in Kinshasa, U.S. Air Force C-141s transported 100 Belgian troops and equipment into Kinshasa. U.S. planes also carried 300 French troops into the Central African Republic and hauled back American citizens and third country nationals from locations outside Zaire. > > 1992 - Sierra Leone. On May 3, 1992, U.S. military planes evacuated Americans from Sierra Leone, where military leaders had overthrown the government. > > 1993 - Bosnia. On February 28, 1993, the United States began an airdrop of relief supplies aimed at Muslims surrounded by Serbian forces in Bosnia. > > 1993 - Bosnia. On April 13, 1993, President Clinton reported U.S. forces were participating in a NATO air action to enforce a U.N. ban on all unauthorized military flights over Bosnia-Herzegovina. > > 1993 - Macedonia. On July 9, 1993, President Clinton reported the deployment of 350 U.S. soldiers to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to participate in the U.N. Protection Force to help maintain stability in the area of former Yugoslavia. > > 1993 - Haiti. On October 20, 1993, President Clinton reported that U.S. ships had begun to enforce a U.N. embargo against Haiti. > > 1994 - Rwanda. On April 12, 1994, President Clinton reported that combat-equipped U.S. military forces had been deployed to Burundi to conduct possible non-combatant evacuation operations of U.S. citizens and other third-country nationals from Rwanda, where widespread fighting had broken out. > > 1994 - Haiti. On September 21, 1994, President Clinton reported the deployment of 1,500 troops to Haiti to restore democracy in Haiti. The troop level was subsequently increased to 20,000. > > 1994 - Bosnia. On November 22, 1994, President Clinton reported the use of U.S. combat aircraft on November 21, 1994, under NATO, to attack bases used by Serbs to attack the town of Bihac in Bosnia. > > 1996 - Liberia. On April 11, 1996, President Clinton reported to Congress that on April 9, 1996, due to the “deterioration of the security situation and the resulting threat to American citizens” in Liberia he had ordered U.S. military forces to evacuate from that country “private U.S. citizens and certain third-country nationals who had taken refuge in the U.S. Embassy compound.” > > 1996 - Central African Republic. On May 23, 1996, President Clinton reported to Congress the deployment of U.S. military personnel to Bangui, Central African Republic, to conduct the evacuation from that country of “private U.S. citizens and certain U.S. Government employees,” and to provide “enhanced security for the American Embassy in Bangui.” > > 1997 - Albania. On March 15, 1997, President Clinton reported to Congress that on March 13, 1997, he had utilized U.S. military forces to evacuate certain U.S.government employees and private U.S. citizens from Tirana, Albania, and to enhance security for the U.S. Embassy in that city. > > 1997 - Congo and Gabon. On March 27, 1997, President Clinton reported to Congress that, on March 25, 1997, a standby evacuation force of U.S. military personnel had been deployed to Congo and Gabon to provide enhanced security for American private citizens, government employees, and selected third country nationals in Zaire, and to be available for any necessary evacuation operation. > > 1997 - Sierra Leone. On May 30, 1997, President Clinton reported to Congress that on May 29 and May 30, 1997, U.S. military personnel were deployed to Freetown, Sierra Leone, to prepare for and undertake the evacuation of certain U.S. government employees and private U.S. citizens. > > 1997 - Cambodia. On July 11, 1997, President Clinton reported to Congress that in an effort to ensure the security of American citizens in Cambodia during a period of domestic conflict there, he had deployed a Task Force of about 550 U.S. military personnel to Utapao Air Base in Thailand. These personnel were to be available for possible emergency evacuation operations in Cambodia as deemed necessary. > > 1998 - Guinea-Bissau. On June 12, 1998, President Clinton reported to Congress that, on June 10, 1998, in response to an army mutiny in Guinea-Bissau endangering the U.S. Embassy, U.S. government employees, and U.S. citizens in that country, he had deployed a standby evacuation force of U.S. military personnel to Dakar, Senegal, to remove such individuals, as well as selected third country nationals, from the city of Bissau. The deployment continued until the necessary evacuations were completed. > > 1998 - Kenya and Tanzania. On August 10, 1998, President Clinton reported to Congress that he had deployed, on August 7, 1998, a Joint Task Force of U.S. military personnel to Nairobi, Kenya, to coordinate the medical and disaster assistance related to the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. > > 1998 - Afghanistan and Sudan. On August 21, 1998, by letter, President Clinton reported to Congress that he had authorized airstrikes on August 20 against camps and installations in Afghanistan and Sudan used by the Osama bin Laden terrorist organization. > > 1999 - Yugoslavia. On March 26, 1999, President Clinton reported to Congress that, on March 24, 1999, U.S. military forces, at his direction, and in coalition with NATO allies, had commenced air strikes against Yugoslavia in response to the Yugoslav government’s campaign of violence and repression against the ethnic Albanian population in Kosovo. > > 1999 - East Timor. On October 8, 1999, President Clinton reported to Congress “consistent with the War Powers Resolution” that he had directed the deployment of a limited number of U.S. military forces to East Timor to support the U.N. multinational force (INTERFET) aimed at restoring peace to East Timor. > > 2000 - Yemen. On October 14, 2000, President Clinton reported to Congress, “consistent with the War Powers Resolution,” that on October 12, 2000, in the wake of an attack on the USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, he had authorized deployment of about 45 military personnel from U.S. Naval Forces Central Command to Aden to provide “medical, security, and disaster response assistance.” You seem to be under the impression that it is common for the US military to go out and be violent imperialists. I think these examples of the use of the miltiary show you don’t seem to understand how the military is most commonly used. Also, is it still immoral to be a soldier if one conducts oneself within the laws of war, including the Geneva Conventions, Hague Conventions, and all other sources of international humanitarian law? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/147 "2012-10-03T13:43:50Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > mwellllyesssuposeso. > But is the will of the electorate supreme or that of the elected? > We touched upon this further up. I think it’s pretty well understood that the electorate’s will is supreme. > [@](#): > > Maybe this is where our differences originate. > I don’t have your happy trust in Democracy-capitalD. > I don’t see us living in countries with ‘governments by the people for the people’. > Maybe I’m too cynical but I see us ruled by an elite that puts on a ‘democracy show’ for us to keep us quiet. > I see this in the USA as well as Britain and quite some European countries. Well I guess that’s where we differ then. I don’t think I’m ‘uncynical’ (so to speak) either. I do think there are major systemic faults with modern democracies related to their sheer size and the complexity of government that means that the will of the people isn’t always immediately apparent. But I also think that this is something that is impossible to avoid. It can only be mitigated, not eliminated. Nonetheless, in Britain and America that parties that led them into war were re-elected in subsequent elections which were free and fair, therefore the electorate clearly felt some consent for them. > [@](#): > > This might kind of undermine any desire of mine to die for ‘my country’, my flag or what have you. Fair enough, but nobody is making you join the Army. You clearly don’t appear to be of the type to really belong there! > [@](#): > > Therefore I also don’t think the army ( or the men it is made out of) should have a blind trust of government. They are **meant** to. Please think for a second of what a world would be like where the Army was free to overrule the elected government. Even one as imperfectly composed as the ones we live under is preferable to one chosen by the government. We’re not Turkey or Pakistan or Burma. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/148 "2012-10-03T13:49:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you think it would be immoral to join the US military no matter what. How then is it possible to wage even a justified war, as in Afghanistan or WWII? WWII is an iffy claim. The US didn’t just join the war because you were ‘suddenly and cowardly attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor’. Nor is Afghanistan that clear cut. You weren’t attacked by Afghanistan nor the Taliban but by people inside Afghanistan. A hard punitative expedition would have been a viable alternative. The mucking about that has been going on for some 12 years now leaves one wondering what intentions were. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/149 "2012-10-03T13:59:22Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Fair enough, but nobody is making you join the Army. You clearly don’t appear to be of the type to really belong there! > . Not soldier material, ey? You think, ey? I was indeed rather thinking of something like Brigadier-General or up. ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/150 "2012-10-03T14:15:24Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > … A hard punitative expedition would have been a viable alternative… Please. We’re not talking Cesear bringing the Gauls back into line, I think it was a bit different. This bit aside, Malden hits it on the head with, “Please think for a second of what a world would be like where the Army was free to overrule the elected government. Even one as imperfectly composed as the ones we live under is preferable to one chosen by the government.” This nails it. Your desire to enlist aside, do you really want a military that can (and all of them technically can) refuse the orders of it’s government. Can you really not see the problems this brings with it? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/151 "2012-10-03T14:17:42Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > WWII is an iffy claim. > The US didn’t just join the war because you were ‘suddenly and cowardly attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor’. In what way does that make US involvement in WWII unjustified? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/152 "2012-10-03T14:17:59Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- and what if they order a soldier to do something immoral? > 2- that soldier choose to join the military. I’m sorry, but it’s a fact. 1 – it’s the Soldier’s duty to refuse unlawful orders, in the U.S. military this is taught very early on. I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me. 2 – yes we understand that soldiers today choose to join the military. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/153 "2012-10-03T14:48:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The point we are raising is, who really has the moral culpability here? The soldier who pulled the trigger, or the president who ordered an unjustified war? The soldier. People are not robots. Or even knives. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/154 "2012-10-03T14:53:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The soldier. People are not robots. Or even knives. 130,000 US troops have the moral responsibility for the fiasco of invading Iraq for the wrong reasons. Nope, doesn’t pass the laugh test. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/155 "2012-10-03T14:54:58Z")
What makes an act immoral? Seems like one person’s opinion would not make an act immoral. There would have to be a general consensus among humanity for something to become generally immoral. I’m sure that we could all list acts that we all would generally agree are immoral. But the OP’s assertion that enlisting in the US military is immoral because he thinks it is…doesn’t cut it in my book. He has failed completely in that assertion. Invading weaker smaller nations is not immoral. Prove to me that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/156 "2012-10-03T15:01:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > 130,000 US troops have the moral responsibility for the fiasco of invading Iraq for the wrong reasons. > > Nope, doesn’t pass the laugh test. ‘The fiasco of invading for the wrong reasons’ Is that your personal euphimism for the word ‘crime’. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/157 "2012-10-03T15:05:02Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > ‘The fiasco of invading for the wrong reasons’ Is that your personal euphimism for the word ‘crime’. Then it’s a crime everyone in the US is guilty of, being free citizens who voted and debated before the war broke out, and who re-elected Congress and President in ensuing elections. Do you propose prosecuting everyone in the US, or just those who put their own lives in danger exercising the will of the elected government and doing what the US thought was right at the time? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/158 "2012-10-03T15:07:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > 130,000 US troops have the moral responsibility for the fiasco of invading Iraq for the wrong reasons. No, but that’s your strawman version of what I said. The soldier - each soldier - takes the moral responsibility for every time they pull a trigger. They can’t get away from moral responsibility for _that_ action by claiming they were ordered to do it, because they are not automatons. As for the _other_ moral responsibility, you commit the fallacy of thinking that there’s only one bit of moral blame to be assigned. Yes, the liars, the politicians and the generals have a moral responsibility. So does every soldier who doesn’t refuse to participate in the unjust war. Not nearly as much moral responsibility as, say, Bush or Powell, but it is a non-zero amount, and _every_ US serviceman in that war has some. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/159 "2012-10-03T15:09:06Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > That’s kind of the whole problem. The idea of going to fight in a pointless war like Iraq, just for college money, or because they want thrills, is disgusting to me. What you have described there is a thug for hire. And they ARE immoral. > > Now, if think the conflict is a necessary and justified one, and that is their major motivation for joining the fight, that’d be different. I could respect that. I feel very much the same way about police officers. It’s a tough job, it’s necessary, because it’s tough I hold suspect most peoples motives for choosing it as an occupation. There are certainly a few that were just born into a family that pushes them towards it, there are some who go to sleep at night hoping for the chance to give a kid back his stolen bicycle. But taken as a whole it’s a ‘tough guy’ thing, on the playground they were either bullies or the victims of bullying and want to be respected now. And _that guy_ has no business wielding the power he does. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506/160 "2012-10-03T15:10:51Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Then it’s a crime everyone in the US is guilty of, being free citizens who voted and debated before the war broke out, and who re-elected Congress and President in ensuing elections. Well, not _everyone_ (of voting age). Only those who didn’t object. But it’s a small amount of moral blame. I think I characterised it in the past as nano-Hitlers, at best. Pico-Hitlers more likely. Even Bush and his team are only on the Milli-Hitler scale. Maybe centi-Hitlers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-in-the-us-military-is-immoral/636506.md?page=9)