# Service, therapy and emotional support animals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044 "2017-12-09T19:40:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/1 "2017-12-09T19:40:00Z")
We’ve had a few, usually very brief threads about dubious “service animals” in the past. And I remember a little feature (I think on VICE, although I can’t find it at the moment) where a lady used different animals and claimed they were “service animals” or “support animals” and managed to get a snake, a pig, a llama etc. into stores and restaurants in NYC with little or no trouble. Anyway, [today the AP ran this story](https://apnews.com/0f56a8e17df94ee0b53672b17cfab282/Ohio-couple-told-again-to-get-rid-of-'support'-goats) about an Ohio couple and their goats. > [@](#): > > An Ohio couple who say their three goats have helped ease the husband’s depression has been ordered once again to get rid of them. There’s not much detail there, but [they did include a link to the original local Toledo story](http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2017/12/08/Emotional-support-goats-ordered-to-be-removed-from-property.html), which is much more detailed. > [@](#): > > When her husband was battling depression, Amanda Held never suspected the goats would lift his spirits. > > First it was Maisy, the 8-year-old they rescued last year from a friend’s farm. Next came the 2-year-old Fiona. Then, the baby Loomis, who resembled a baby calf with his black-and-white spots. > > When Mrs. Held’s husband, Justin, began spending time with the goats and caring for them, she noticed something she hadn’t seen in a while — a smile. > > He stopped drinking so much and focused on taking care of their three goats. He nursed Loomis back to health when he was ill, built a wooden house for them in the backyard and he allowed Loomis to cuddle in his lap to take naps. > > “You can’t look at a goat and not be happy,” Mrs. Held said. “My husband was able to get off medications, no longer depressed and completely regained his quality of life.” When they got their first notice, their removed the goats the next day, but Mr. Held slipped back into depression. So they got a “prescription” from their doctor listing the goats as “emotional support animals” and brought them back home. At some point the city found out and wants them gone (again). Are these legitimate service animals? Should the city accommodate the Helds and their goats? _Must_ the city accommodate the Helds, now that a doctor has weighed in? For those that are sympathetic to the Helds, in your opinion what animals would not be acceptable service animals and why? Could I have an emotional support Grizzly bear? An ostrich? How about a service polecat? A therapy anteater? I’m interested in the specifics of this case (I think there are a lot of interesting legal and/or medical issues that could come up), but I’m also interested in a larger dialogue on the validity and appropriateness of “service animals” that ARE NOT trained rescue animals, seeing eye animals, or other well-established tasks which animals are trained to do by and for humans. What do y’all think? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/2 "2017-12-09T19:58:15Z")
Moved from MPSIMS to Great Debates at OP’s request. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/3 "2017-12-09T20:02:37Z")
Awww - baby’s first thread move! In re OP Goats have a lot of personality. It wouldn’t surprise me that interacting with them, plus the daily routine and responsibility of caring for them, might be good for a person with depression. Also, goats are the world’s best poison ivy killers, which gives them a temporary pass, imo. But keeping livestock in a city is a health hazard. There are a good, important, reasons to zone them out. And these aren’t itty bitty pygmy goats either, by the looks of things. That’s a big honking goat, the guy is hugging. If you live in a city then city health has to be the paramount concern. On the upside, most of Ohio is shockingly rural. I really don’t believe they’d have any trouble finding some nearby space for their flock. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/4 "2017-12-09T20:24:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > We’ve had a few, usually very brief threads about dubious “service animals” in the past. And I remember a little feature (I think on VICE, although I can’t find it at the moment) where a lady used different animals and claimed they were “service animals” or “support animals” and managed to get a snake, a pig, a llama etc. into stores and restaurants in NYC with little or no trouble. > > Anyway, [today the AP ran this story](https://apnews.com/0f56a8e17df94ee0b53672b17cfab282/Ohio-couple-told-again-to-get-rid-of-'support'-goats) about an Ohio couple and their goats.There’s not much detail there, but [they did include a link to the original local Toledo story](http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2017/12/08/Emotional-support-goats-ordered-to-be-removed-from-property.html), which is much more detailed.When they got their first notice, their removed the goats the next day, but Mr. Held slipped back into depression. So they got a “prescription” from their doctor listing the goats as “emotional support animals” and brought them back home. At some point the city found out and wants them gone (again). > > Are these legitimate service animals? Should the city accommodate the Helds and their goats? _Must_ the city accommodate the Helds, now that a doctor has weighed in? > > For those that are sympathetic to the Helds, in your opinion what animals would not be acceptable service animals and why? Could I have an emotional support Grizzly bear? An ostrich? How about a service polecat? A therapy anteater? > > I’m interested in the specifics of this case (I think there are a lot of interesting legal and/or medical issues that could come up), but I’m also interested in a larger dialogue on the validity and appropriateness of “service animals” that ARE NOT trained rescue animals, seeing eye animals, or other well-established tasks which animals are trained to do by and for humans. > > What do y’all think? Seems like he’s finding peace because he’s caring for animals. I think he should try a few dogs or cats (or gerbils or guinea pigs, or parrots, mice, or rats, or ferrets, etc.) and see if that helps him with his depression. If not, I think he should move to a farm. What are the chances that goats are the only animal that brings him peace? What if elephants were the only animals that would do it for him? (That would be awesome, BTW) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/5 "2017-12-09T21:10:47Z")
Oh, let the guy have his friggin’ goats fer chrissake - unless they have a habit of getting over/under/through the fence and eating the neighbors’ plantings (as a gardener, _not_ seeing goats makes me happy). I suspect the usual suburban critters (raccoons, especially, due to internal parasites) are a far greater health hazard than a few goats. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/6 "2017-12-09T21:13:45Z")
I don’t know why goats are a health hazard, nor whether this guy lived in the city proper or the suburbs-- sometimes if you are in the nebulous region between what constitutes that actual city, and what is rural, you can get a variance. There was a horse in the subdivision (on a pretty big yard) where my aunt and uncle lived, and some other people had two chickens. There was also some rule about rabbits-- that you couldn’t have more than one in the city, but you could have up to four in the suburbs. I looked it up once. It probably had something to do with “accidental” breeding. I usually have very strong opinions about service/therapy animals, but on this one, I’m torn between two “mehs.” One is, so he has a goat, big deal. It’s not a slippery slope. It’s a case by case. Just because you let him have a goat doesn’t mean you have to let someone else have a rhino. The other one is “Seriously, dude, did you even try a dog, or did you go straight to goats? what’s up with that?” Whatever they do, move to a rural area, or get a shelter mutt, I hope it works out for him. I am pretty sure about one thing, though. I think it was a few years ago that the courts laid down the law that only the species were protected as service/therapy animals: dogs, cats, and miniature horses. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/7 "2017-12-09T21:14:35Z")
Goats in the city are no more a health hazard than dogs or cats–less, in fact, since their poop doesn’t stink like a carnivore’s does and doesn’t carry parasites like cat shit does. And cats leave theirs everywhere, goats stay in a pen or in the yard. I live in Portland OR, within city limits, and we’re allowed to keep up to three of all sorts of livestock–hens, ducks, goats, etc. My neighbor has a goat and she’s much less annoying than the Boston Terrorist who lives across the way from her. In fact, Portland has its own herd of goats–the Belmont Goats were a herd that became homeless and have been adopted by the city. They live not too far from me and people stop by the Boy’s and Girl’s Club where they live constantly to play with them and enjoy their silliness. Goats are also about the only critters that will eat the ubiquitous invasive non-native Himalayan blackberry that plagues most of western Oregon. Having a herd of goats on call means getting rid of more blackberry for less cost and effort than using standard brush clearing methods. Goats are pretty awesome. [https://thebelmontgoats.org/](https://thebelmontgoats.org/) I think once you’ve bonded to an animal it’s going to be deleterious to get rid of them. And goats are very engaging, social, funny and responsive to humans. They’re very easy to get attached to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/8 "2017-12-09T21:24:29Z")
This just might be the great Bowling Green Goat Massacre we’ve been hearing so much about. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/9 "2017-12-09T21:37:39Z")
A lot of people - myself included - would “feel better” if allowed to bring their pets where they generally aren’t allowed. The fact that they can convince some quack to write a prescription is - IMO - insufficient reason to allow them to do so. This whole “therapy animal” business is way overblown (IMO). Of course, I feel any number of mental/emotional impairments are overdiagnosed as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/10 "2017-12-09T21:40:30Z")
The law is probably arbitrary, but given that the law is in place, it seem incumbent on the goat guy and his doctor to demonstrate that a therapy dog or cat (or 3 dogs, if need be) can’t serve the same purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/11 "2017-12-09T21:47:55Z")
Man, I worked at a zoo. We had about two dozen assorted goats & sheep, plus llamas, big horns, and kudus, to name a few. I am here to inform you that goat poop stinks like it’s trying for the Stank Olympics. It reeks. It multiplies. It’s a medal contender, I am telling you. I know this for a fact because I was the one cleaning it up. I honestly can’t believe that I have to explain to people here that you do not want livestock urine and feces near your house. Goats can spread diseases including e. coli, salmonella, listeria, bruccellois, and anthrax. Goat urine can turn a pen into mud. And don’t bother talking cats and dogs to me, because I also don’t agree that pets should be allowed to roam off leash or that pet owners should let their dogs poop freely. And when talking about urban goats, the problem is multiplied by population density. The problem with allowing goats in the city is not this one dude and his couple of goats. It’s having lots of people deciding to get goats, in close quarters (because who doesn’t like goats? I know I do), where there will be run off from their yards when it rains or snows. This is not healthy for a high density area. Granted, Grand Rapids Ohio is pretty much the definition of a low density area. I still don’t blame them for telling people to drive the five minutes to rural areas to keep their livestock. I would like some goats, myself. I sympathize with the guy who wants his goats. I don’t see anything wrong with telling him to move his farm animals to place zoned for farms. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/12 "2017-12-09T22:59:25Z")
First thing. I hope he doesn’t decide he needs to fly with the goats. “I’m tired of these … goats on this … plane.” Second, the point about if one guy can do it, so can anyone. Given the number of dubious therapy dogs in airports, I can see this happening. Third, some cities allow goats. I have pictures of some roaming the sidewalks of Cairo (not Illinois.) You don’t want your city to be like Cairo. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/13 "2017-12-10T01:52:58Z")
My Dad managed several apartment complexes. One of his ‘horror’ stories was about a woman who wanted to keep a potbellied pig in her 1st floor apartment. The company took it to court to get her to give up the pig or move. She was on subsidized housing and got a doctor to prescribe the pig for her bipolar/ depression disorder. She won the case. They had to let her keep the pig. When she moved out 2 years later the apartment was unlivable. As far as I know it still is, some 5 years later! ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/14 "2017-12-10T05:01:01Z")
Is an “emotional support animal” necessarily a service animal? Or is there a distinction? It seems like this guy just wants to have the goats. It doesn’t sound like he’s trying to take them into places where pets aren’t allowed by calling them service animals. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/15 "2017-12-10T05:15:42Z")
My cat is a menace. I bend over and she jumps onto my shoulders. Hell, I stand up and she leaps on my shoulders. I get in bed and she snuggles down against the back of my knees so I’m immobilized from the waist down. I cross my leg to put my sock, ankle/foot orthotic, pant leg, and shoe on and guess who has to sit on my lower leg. She provides aggravation. Though I’ll admit when she does the same stuff to my roommate I think it’s awfully amusing. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/16 "2017-12-10T06:39:15Z")
Even as someone with depression, I find the quirks of emotional service animals to be strange. Find one which is legal to keep. I don’t know if there will be much of a debate on this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/17 "2017-12-10T08:25:35Z")
What if the neighbors get a note from their doctor saying they are emotional scarred by the presence of goats? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/18 "2017-12-10T08:39:15Z")
Note, while state laws may apply [“Beginning on March 15, 2011, only dogs are recognized as service animals under titles II and III of the ADA.”](https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm) So goats etc…don’t count and it may be useful to consider this quote from the above link. > [@](#): > > The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA. > This definition does not affect or limit the broader definition of “assistance animal” under the Fair Housing Act or the broader definition of “service animal” under the Air Carrier Access Act. > Some State and local laws also define service animal more broadly than the ADA does. Information about such laws can be obtained from the State attorney general’s office. And this is the critical part that a small number of people will abuse, but note that number 2 would filter out a lot of the people who abuse this right to bring pets everywhere they want. > [@](#): > > When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/19 "2017-12-10T08:45:07Z")
Wow, that is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044/20 "2017-12-10T14:24:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What if the neighbors get a note from their doctor saying they are emotional scarred by the presence of goats? I’m curious about the legal outcome when someone’s desire for a support animal conflicts with someone else’s allergies… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/service-therapy-and-emotional-support-animals/804044.md?page=2)