# Session lies again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379 "2017-05-24T23:17:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/61 "2017-05-26T16:12:09Z")
For what it’s worth, a CNN reporter is saying the Rep. Jackie Speier, a Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said that if Sessions were meeting ambassadors in his official capacity, there’s no need to disclose. > Again, I think it’s an open issue as to whether all his meetings were in an official capacity, particularly the RNC one. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/62 "2017-05-26T16:18:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Frankly, I think your lies in the last few posts you’ve made are more bold than what Sessions did in his form. You are claiming that Sessions agrees with the charge that he lied on the form, you are claiming that I agree with you, and you are claiming that several other posters are saying that lies are okay. > > You either are delusional or know that you’re misrepresenting lots of things, which makes you very dishonest. Apparently you don’t understand that patently false statements are lies. That’s obvious from your use of them in your posts. I have no idea why you feel the need to carry water for Sessions. He lied. His statements were false. Just like Sessions you are trying to distract from that fact by looking for a really good excuse. If you can’t face the facts you shouldn’t try to dabble in them. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/63 "2017-05-26T16:20:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Apparently you don’t understand that patently false statements are lies. That’s obvious from your use of them in your posts. I have no idea why you feel the need to carry water for Sessions. He lied. His statements were false. Just like Sessions you are trying to distract from that fact by looking for a really good excuse. If you can’t face the facts you shouldn’t try to dabble in them. I hate Jeff Sessions. I am not willing to give him even the slightest benefit of the doubt. But you’re totally misunderstanding **Ravenman** in this thread, in large part because you haven’t distinguished between the congressional testimony and the SF-86. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/64 "2017-05-26T16:23:40Z")
So, just to clarify things for myself a little bit, Ravenman, if we presume that the RNC meeting was not official senate business and Sessions knew it, and if we also presume that Sessions was told to omit official senate business from his answers to the form, then his deliberate failure to mention the RNC meeting would in fact not be covered by the modified instructions and would in fact still be a “lie” of omission? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/65 "2017-05-26T16:37:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, just to clarify things for myself a little bit, Ravenman, if we presume that the RNC meeting was not official senate business and Sessions knew it, and if we also presume that Sessions was told to omit official senate business from his answers to the form, then his deliberate failure to mention the RNC meeting would in fact not be covered by the modified instructions and would in fact still be a “lie” of omission? I consider the RNC meeting an open issue, rather than presuming it was not official; but in the case that it was an unofficial meeting, he had the obligation to disclose it. I’m trying to avoid the term “lie” in the debate (with the exception of applying to **Tripolar** , who lies like a rug) because I generally interpret the word to mean a statement someone makes while knowing full well that the opposite is true. Personally, I don’t believe that misstatements, mistakes, overlooking something, or genuinely believing something that is false, would normally constitute a lie. I can’t pretend to know if Sessions is intentionally misleading people on the RNC meeting, for example. But if it was an unofficial meeting, he absolutely had the obligation to disclose it. Period. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/66 "2017-05-26T16:43:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let’s say the investigator tells an applicant to fill in five years of work history rather than seven as instructed on the form. The applicant complies. Has the applicant committed a falsehood?.. A strictly procedural matter. Maybe he was instructed to place an “X” in the box, but checked it, that would be small potatos. Meeting a foreign agent while functioning for the campaign (who paid for him to be there!) is quite another. > [@](#): > > …I’m commenting on this case, not investigating it. Other than the DOJ statement that the FBI investigator instructed Sessions on how to fill out the form – which again, seems totally routine – I don’t know of any other documents out there. Are you assuming that the DOJ is lying in stating that the FBI investigator gave such instructions? As a rock solid foundation for argument, “assume” is a mite weak… And again, he wasn’t there as official Senate business, he was a campaign functionary. Is meeting with representatives of foreign, even hostile, governments “routine” under such circumstances? I have my doubts, and you do not? > [@](#): > > …Well, I bet I’ve filled out these forms way more than you, and I’ve received written instructions to fill things out in a certain way, and I’ve also asked questions about whether certain things should be included or not, and I’ve relied on that guidance to fill out the form… Well, good for you! > [@](#): > > …I’m certain that literally millions of other Americans who have held security clearances have also relied on the advice of the FBI, OPM investigators, or others on how to fill out these forms correctly, in a spirit of cooperation and accuracy. I don’t think that vast numbers of Americans over the years who relied on the advice of professionals should be accused of lying because the followed specific instructions rather than a general form. To the extent that Sessions did the same thing – again with the caveat that I’m not so sure about the RNC meeting – he shouldn’t be accused of wrongdoing for what, in my experience, is a rather routine matter of following supplemental instructions from the agency responsible for carrying out the investigation… And again, you seek to characterize a meeting between a campaign functionary (who also happens to be a US Senator) and an agent of a foreign power is “routine”. And alleged advice to omit such information is trivial. Is that it, then? All you got? > [@](#): > > …If evidence comes to light that the FBI gave Sessions no such instructions, then that changes everything. But I don’t start with the assumption that the FBI and DOJ are lying about having given supplementary instructions, which seems to be a difference between you and I… And those supplementary instructions were…well, what, exactly? That part seems a mite fuzzy. Did they tell him,\* specifically!\*…don’t talk about the Russians? And how were these instructions conveyed? In writing, dare we hope? > [@](#): > > …and the lawyer’s advice may be tainted by his experience dealing with sketchy applicants… That’s all you got for that? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/67 "2017-05-26T16:48:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …But if it was an unofficial meeting, he absolutely had the obligation to disclose it. Period. Well, now we’re getting somewhere. Good! So, the Russian calls the Senator, says he wants an official meeting, totally legit. But Jeff Bo says “Tell you what, I’m heading down to do some campaign work for DJT, why don’t you stop by and we’ll take our official meeting there?” Or what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/68 "2017-05-26T17:04:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I consider the RNC meeting an open issue, rather than presuming it was not official; but in the case that it was an unofficial meeting, he had the obligation to disclose it. > > I’m trying to avoid the term “lie” in the debate (with the exception of applying to **Tripolar** , who lies like a rug) because I generally interpret the word to mean a statement someone makes while knowing full well that the opposite is true. Personally, I don’t believe that misstatements, mistakes, overlooking something, or genuinely believing something that is false, would normally constitute a lie. I can’t pretend to know if Sessions is intentionally misleading people on the RNC meeting, for example. But if it was an unofficial meeting, he absolutely had the obligation to disclose it. Period. Thank you. This is what I thought your stance was, but I think it’s good to have it compacted into a neat and tidy (and largely non-confrontational) paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/69 "2017-05-26T17:54:03Z")
Another commonality between the authoritarian statists and the “civil servants” they admire, irrepressible scorn for an incorrectly filled out form. They view the Form as the most perfect ideal of human expression, and thus promote policies that would supplant all modes of human interaction with the Form. On quiet nights in Washington D.C., a leisurely stroll can be sometimes interrupted by a low rumbling from the within the bowels of the bureaucratic dungeons of the hideous government buildings. One evening I followed the emotionless murmur I had only then recognized as possibly human in origin. Slipping down an alleyway near the Department of Education building, and slowly descending into a cellarway I knew I had found it’s locus. Fixing a peering gaze on the window of the cellarway entrance, my deliberate approach slowly revealed to me, in ever-widening horror, the source of the din: a very cliche circle of robed people attempting to rhythmically chant some sort of legalistic spell. At their feet, a biracial beauty of generous callipygian proportions. As she writhed in agony, I turned my eyes toward a stack of 1099s beside her, pulsating as if alive and assuming human form! As one of the chorus tossed a pair of khakis to the new bureaucrat, I regained my wits and quickly left. Needless to say, tax time takes a whole new tenor these days. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/70 "2017-05-26T18:24:20Z")
I wonder what The Keebler Drow will say next. Oh Fudge? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/oUs2lxOxpMQ/hqdefault.jpg "Keebler Cookies - "Oh, Fudge!" (Commercial, 1980)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUs2lxOxpMQ) …Or donations gratefully accepted? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/9zBwXop5fAk/hqdefault.jpg "Keebler Elves Rich'n Chips Commercial - 80's Vintage Advertisement") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zBwXop5fAk) ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/71 "2017-05-26T18:35:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Another commonality between the authoritarian statists and the “civil servants” they admire, irrepressible scorn for an incorrectly filled out form. > > They view the Form as the most perfect ideal of human expression, and thus promote policies that would supplant all modes of human interaction with the Form. . Farnaby is so amusing in his delusions… When he grows up and goes to work, it will be funny to see his reaction when he discoveres the private sector, on its own likes the forms too, the horror of the modern life. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/72 "2017-05-26T18:48:18Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Farnaby is so amusing in his delusions… > > When he grows up and goes to work, it will be funny to see his reaction when he discoveres the private sector, on its own likes the forms too, the horror of the modern life. Pretty sure he wasn’t being serious. Just a little theory I have based on the fact that the _actual_ ritual to summon eldritch entities from stacks of forms requires _two_ gyrating biracial beauties, not one. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/73 "2017-05-26T19:09:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A strictly procedural matter. Maybe he was instructed to place an “X” in the box, but checked it, that would be small potatos. Meeting a foreign agent while functioning for the campaign (who paid for him to be there!) is quite another. I contend that it is the investigator, not the applicant, that determines what’s important and what isn’t. > [@](#): > > And again, he wasn’t there as official Senate business, he was a campaign functionary. Is meeting with representatives of foreign, even hostile, governments “routine” under such circumstances? I have my doubts, and you do not? … So, the Russian calls the Senator, says he wants an official meeting, totally legit. But Jeff Bo says “Tell you what, I’m heading down to do some campaign work for DJT, why don’t you stop by and we’ll take our official meeting there?” To the best of my understanding, political conventions typically have many dozens to hundreds of foreign officials in attendance. I have a hard time leaning toward the presumption that all of those officials are there for nonofficial, meaning primarily political, reasons. If I had to guess, I would think that the foreign officials would more likely want to be talking policy matters with folks like Sessions, even in that forum, as opposed to political matters, but that’s total speculation. > [@](#): > > And again, you seek to characterize a meeting between a campaign functionary (who also happens to be a US Senator) and an agent of a foreign power is “routine”. And alleged advice to omit such information is trivial. Is that it, then? All you got? Maybe you misread something, maybe you’re trying to put words in my mouth, but I can barely follow the thought in this paragraph. Let me be as clear as possible: 1. It is routine for US officials, including senators, to meet with agents of foreign powers. It happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Foreign ambassadors, kings, legislators, diplomats, military officers, many businessmen, a certain lobbyists are all agents of foreign powers. And they meet with US government officials all the goddamned time. Trump just met hundreds of agents of foreign powers during his trip. 2. Even if a US person wears two hats – as a US official and as a politician – sure, it is also totally routine for them to meet with agents of foreign powers. It happens all the time. But to the extent that those roles overlap, there are sometimes different expectations on disclosure on such meetings. 3. And finally, I believe I was using the word “routine” earlier to describe the normal course of events when an investigator gives additional instructions to an applicant on how to fill out an SF-86. Which also happens all the time. > [@](#): > > And those supplementary instructions were…well, what, exactly? That part seems a mite fuzzy. Did they tell him,\* specifically!\*…don’t talk about the Russians? And how were these instructions conveyed? In writing, dare we hope? How the hell should I know? You think I work for the FBI and I was sitting in the meetings between Sessions and the person doing the investigation? I’m assuming that the DOJ statement saying that the FBI investigator told him to fill out the form in a certain way is accurate. Why do you keep asking me to produce more evidence for a claim that I’ve said several times that I’m taking at face value? What’s next, you’re going to ask me for a urine sample from Mr. Sessions to disprove that he’s on meth? Get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/74 "2017-05-26T19:11:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Another commonality between the authoritarian statists and the “civil servants” they admire, irrepressible scorn for an incorrectly filled out form. > > They view the Form as the most perfect ideal of human expression, and thus promote policies that would supplant all modes of human interaction with the Form. > > On quiet nights in Washington D.C., a leisurely stroll can be sometimes interrupted by a low rumbling from the within the bowels of the bureaucratic dungeons of the hideous government buildings. One evening I followed the emotionless murmur I had only then recognized as possibly human in origin. Slipping down an alleyway near the Department of Education building, and slowly descending into a cellarway I knew I had found it’s locus. > > Fixing a peering gaze on the window of the cellarway entrance, my deliberate approach slowly revealed to me, in ever-widening horror, the source of the din: a very cliche circle of robed people attempting to rhythmically chant some sort of legalistic spell. At their feet, a biracial beauty of generous callipygian proportions. As she writhed in agony, I turned my eyes toward a stack of 1099s beside her, pulsating as if alive and assuming human form! As one of the chorus tossed a pair of khakis to the new bureaucrat, I regained my wits and quickly left. > > Needless to say, tax time takes a whole new tenor these days. How nice. The pro-Confederacy libertarian idiot can’t even type out a fantasy he has without bringing insulting race references into it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/75 "2017-05-26T19:13:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What’s next, you’re going to ask me for a urine sample from Mr. Sessions to disprove that he’s on meth? Get a grip. If you happen to have one of those, I wouldn’t say no. Er, don’t ask me what I’d do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/76 "2017-05-26T19:59:22Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Pretty sure he wasn’t being serious. Just a little theory I have based on the fact that the _actual_ ritual to summon eldritch entities from stacks of forms requires _two_ gyrating biracial beauties, not one. Be right back, I have some eldritch entities to summon. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Another commonality between the authoritarian statists and the “civil servants” they admire, irrepressible scorn for an incorrectly filled out form. > > They view the Form as the most perfect ideal of human expression, and thus promote policies that would supplant all modes of human interaction with the Form. > > On quiet nights in Washington D.C., a leisurely stroll can be sometimes interrupted by a low rumbling from the within the bowels of the bureaucratic dungeons of the hideous government buildings. One evening I followed the emotionless murmur I had only then recognized as possibly human in origin. Slipping down an alleyway near the Department of Education building, and slowly descending into a cellarway I knew I had found it’s locus. > > Fixing a peering gaze on the window of the cellarway entrance, my deliberate approach slowly revealed to me, in ever-widening horror, the source of the din: a very cliche circle of robed people attempting to rhythmically chant some sort of legalistic spell. At their feet, a biracial beauty of generous callipygian proportions. As she writhed in agony, I turned my eyes toward a stack of 1099s beside her, pulsating as if alive and assuming human form! As one of the chorus tossed a pair of khakis to the new bureaucrat, I regained my wits and quickly left. > > Needless to say, tax time takes a whole new tenor these days. What? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/77 "2017-05-26T20:20:42Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Farnaby is so amusing in his delusions… > > When he grows up and goes to work, it will be funny to see his reaction when he discoveres the private sector, on its own likes the forms too, the horror of the modern life. So glad to have amused you, until now I thought you incapable of such. I am grown(in age) and in the private sector. It’s one thing to like the Form, another to live by it. > [@begbert2](#): > > Pretty sure he wasn’t being serious. Just a little theory I have based on the fact that the _actual_ ritual to summon eldritch entities from stacks of forms requires _two_ gyrating biracial beauties, not one. Is that an entity in your pants… > [@Ravenman](#): > > How nice. The pro-Confederacy libertarian idiot can’t even type out a fantasy he has without bringing insulting race references into it. ["If I like their race, how can that be racist](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YX19-S4-V54)?" How surprising that the bureaucrat has such an entitled stick in his ass. Literally no demographic on Earth would be offended by that statement besides the white elitist puritanical progressive. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/78 "2017-05-26T20:32:10Z")
Yes, **Will** , we get it. You’re a big fan of Thomas Jefferson and his plantation. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/79 "2017-05-26T21:52:36Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, **Will** , we get it. You’re a big fan of Thomas Jefferson and his plantation. What would you do if I weren’t here to help you virtue signal your way to salvation? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379/80 "2017-05-26T22:03:48Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Better vacuum your house and all jacket pockets thoroughly for marijuana residue before you criticize the little Confederate monkey. He’ll slam you in the federal pen for twenty years. But if you’re a corporation, you can launder money for years, pay a bribe (I mean a fine, a fine), and get a nice “non-prosecution agreement” (Citigroup-owned Banamex USA). The little rat bastard is only tough on small potatoes pot smokers and “them there colored folks”. Meanwhile real crime is free to continue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/session-lies-again/787379.md?page=5)