# Settle a debate: In A League of Their Own... \[OPEN SPOILERS IN THREAD\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 10, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725 "2011-12-10T12:42:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/41 "2011-12-11T15:57:03Z")
Actually, we did this again in [2007](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=408946). I’m still an oldest child and still sticking with my answer - Kit won. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/42 "2011-12-11T16:23:29Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > If you see the scene in the context of the film, you would go the other way. You can’t just look at this scene and understand the characters. Context doesn’t matter. That clip is very clear. Dottie drops the ball after being charged as hard as she possibly can be by Kit. Kit won fair and square. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/43 "2011-12-11T16:45:30Z")
People who are saying that Dottie dropped it on purpose are probably the same types of people who got on Ernie Lombardi’s case (his so-called “Snooze”) when he dropped the ball during a very similar play in the 1939 World Series. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/44 "2011-12-11T17:35:27Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > 1. As far as her changing her mind while Kit was running the bases - Dottie and her husband spent the first six games driving back to Oregon, then changing her mind and coming back to play in game seven. She had well over a week to contemplate all that went down between her and her sister. She had to have changed her mind while Kit was running because _right before_ the hit, Dottie tells the pitcher how to throw it so Kit will strike out. She’s obviously trying to win the game at that point. Because of that, I like to think that Kit wins legitimately. The movie is about doing what you love and succeeding at it even though everyone tells you you’re not good enough. Not just Kit, the whole league. Kit wanted it more. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/45 "2011-12-11T18:04:58Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > She dropped the ball on purpose. She was done with baseball after the game anyway, going on to family life with **her soon to be husband.** Her sister has nothing but baseball going on, and would still be playing. Giving her sister the moment of glory was a noble sacrifice that both of them recognized, but would never acknowledge. Just a point of clarification, Dottie was already married before the movie opens. I think it was accidental. Winning for Kit is only meaningful if she wins fair and square. Dottie, as her sister, of course was happy to see her happy, but to hand her the win would undercut what was so important to Kit about winning — that she could do it on her own merits with no help from Dottie. Everything up to the end shows Dottie being balls-out about winning. She may not have _thought_ winning was important to her, but as Jimmy Dugan\* points out, she’s so good that she can’t _not_ be excellent. What he was wrong about, though, was that she would do anything to continue. - Kid, reading signed baseball: “Avoid the clap. — Jimmy Dugan” Jimmy: “Hey, that’s good advice!” ---
**Author:** ![SykoSkotty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@SykoSkotty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SykoSkotty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/46 "2011-12-11T20:08:16Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > She had to have changed her mind while Kit was running because _right before_ the hit, Dottie tells the pitcher how to throw it so Kit will strike out. She’s obviously trying to win the game at that point. > > Because of that, I like to think that Kit wins legitimately. The movie is about doing what you love and succeeding at it even though everyone tells you you’re not good enough. Not just Kit, the whole league. Kit wanted it more. I understand the point you’re making but I must add : yes, she told the pitcher, “high fastballs, can’t him 'em, can’t lay off 'em either.” But at that point, Dottie already made up her mind that Kit would win _if given the opportunity_ like I said in my first post. Once Kit **finally** hit the high fastball, Dottie was going to make sure Kit won the whole thing. And for the record, it takes about 16 seconds to run the bases…and in that span of time, yes, you can make a decision about whether or not to throw the game. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/47 "2011-12-11T21:19:50Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > \ > Also, I don’t know if this has happened to anyone else - but I discussed this movie with my younger sister once. I’m the older sister (by two years), and when I watched the movie I totally believed that Dottie dropped it on purpose. Whereas my younger sister saw the movie and totally believed that Kit forced Dottie to drop it. So I think our birth order definitely had something to do with which characters in the movie we identified with, and how we interpreted the ending. I’m a middle kid - I can see both sides of this argument. 🙂 > [@storyteller0910](#): > > I believe Dottie dropped it on purpose. > > And the ending to that movie makes me _so mad_. Kit does exactly the wrong thing from a baseball standpoint - runs through her coach’s “stop” sign in a situation where she’s dead to rights at home (and against a sensational defensive catcher). The whole movie is full of Kit acting like a jerk and me being expected to side with her. To then have Kit rewarded for making a bad baseball play at movie’s end… gah. Still bugs. Kit really is unsympathetic. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/48 "2011-12-11T21:36:34Z")
Kit is too sympathetic. Dotties isn’t _trying_, but still manages to outshine Kit in everything. Kit really, really hates it, and she’s going to show she’s better one way ro another. So she does. I was in that movie, too. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/49 "2011-12-11T21:39:15Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I was in that movie, too. Leave David Letterman alone Rosie! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/50 "2011-12-11T23:54:52Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > \*\* > Miller\*\*, you say it would be a rat bastard thing to do to her team, how about quitting for the first games of the series and then coming back later? I think quitting was also a bad thing to do. She walked out on her friends when they needed her. Returning for the final game was Dottie’s realization that doing that was wrong. Regardless, the difference between not helping someone succeed, and actively sabotaging them, is so vast, I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make here. > [@SykoSkotty](#): > > Did you NOT see the movie? Listen here now: > > 1. Kit was always coming in 2nd to Dottie, throughout their whole lives. Yes. That’s why, when Kit knocks the ball out of Dottie’s hand at the end of the movie, it’s a legitimate victory and emotional high point. > [@](#): > > 1. Dottie knew she wasn’t coming back to play next year so it didn’t matter to her if she won the world series or not. Throughout the entire movie, Dottie made it clear that baseball was not what she wanted to do. She was only doing this to make money while her husband was fighting in the war. Right. Her heart wasn’t in the game. Kit’s was, and in the end, that’s what determined who won. > [@](#): > > 1. She told the league president to trade her to another team - this should also tell you that she wanted Kit to be happy and it didn’t matter to her if the team she was on won or not. She wanted the conflict with Kit to be over, even if it meant not being on the same team. This, and the preceding two points I edited out, are true, but aren’t evidence one way or the other for Dottie throwing the game. > [@](#): > > 1. The game announcer shouting “Hinson dropped the ball! Hinson dropped the ball!” shows how shocking it was that someone as talented as Dottie would drop the ball in that scenario. No one in their right mind would think she would drop it unless it was on purpose. This is really stretching. Sports movies, as a genre, are defined by the unexpected reversal and the unlikely win. When Bob Uecker flips out when the Indians win the World Series at the end of _Major League_, are we meant to understand that the Yankees had thrown the game? > [@](#): > > 1. The scene with Kit on the teams shoulders, then they cut to Tom Hanks and Dottie watching. Did you see the look on Dottie’s face?? She’s so happy that her sister’s finally the hero she always wanted to be. She did what big sisters are supposed to do - took care of her little sister. Of course she’s happy. Her little sister has finally achieved something she’s always wanted: she’s beaten her big sister. She’s happy for her success, which is easy for her to do, because she wasn’t particularly invested in the outcome of the game. But the important part is that she’s happy that Kit _actually succeeded_. If you look at that scene with the interpretation that Dottie lost on purpose, it completely ruins it. This is the part where I really don’t understand the other side of the debate, because if I take your interpretation, I can’t watch that scene without wanting to hit Geena Davis in the face with a baseball bat. She’s just stolen the one thing in the world that matters most to Kit: proving herself better at something than Dottie. Even if Kit doesn’t realize it - even if she never realizes it - that’s an awful thing to do to someone. And if Kit ever finds out, she’s never going to speak to her elder sister again. And that happens across the board in this movie, if you watch it with that interpretation in mind. It absolutely ruins every theme in the film, and turns Dottie into a tremendously unlikable person. There are three main themes in the film: love of family (Dottie and Kit), love of friends (the other girls on the team), and love of the game. Under your interpretation, Dottie betrays all three loves. At the end of the movie, she’s patronizing her little sister by letting her “pretend” she won, she’s sold out her friends by throwing the big game, and she’s cheated as baseball. We’re left with the message that friends don’t matter, younger siblings can never exceed elder siblings, and that when it comes to baseball, all the heart and spirit in the world don’t mean shit next to natural talent. I can certainly see why people come to the conclusion about this movie that you have. I just don’t see why you still think its a good movie. I prefer the one that ends with the protagonist repairing a breach with her friends by coming back at the last minute to help them win a game, trying her hardest, and yet still coming up short against someone with a true passion for the game - and being okay with that, because she’s still happy to see her sister succeed. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/51 "2011-12-12T00:33:00Z")
She dropped it on purpose. She knew what her future would be, and what her next steps were. She gave her sister a future with that one gesture. It’s not a thing that would make any sense whatsoever in our times; but in context, she was saving her sister. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/52 "2011-12-12T00:51:43Z")
I don’t think we’re settling this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/53 "2011-12-12T01:28:25Z")
I agree with everything Marley said. I’m curious as to the highest level of competition the respondents have participated and the breakdown. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/54 "2011-12-12T02:02:13Z")
You mean, **Miller** , **Snarky Kong**. I had to look back to see if **Marley** had posted in here… ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/55 "2011-12-12T02:10:36Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > You mean, **Miller** , **Snarky Kong**. > > I had to look back to see if **Marley** had posted in here… Yeah, thanks. Stupid pagination. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/56 "2011-12-12T04:14:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is really stretching. Sports movies, as a genre, are defined by the unexpected reversal and the unlikely win. When Bob Uecker flips out when the Indians win the World Series at the end of _Major League_, are we meant to understand that the Yankees had thrown the game? The Indians don’t win the World Series at the end of “Major League.” ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/57 "2011-12-12T04:27:34Z")
> [@SykoSkotty](#): > > I understand the point you’re making but I must add : yes, she told the pitcher, “high fastballs, can’t him 'em, can’t lay off 'em either.” But at that point, Dottie already made up her mind that Kit would win _if given the opportunity_ like I said in my first post. Once Kit **finally** hit the high fastball, Dottie was going to make sure Kit won the whole thing. I’m not sure I understand the point you’re making 🙂 You’re saying she decided beforehand to set Kit up to fail, but also that if Kit got a hit, and if it was a not-quite-an-infield-homer, and if Kit forced a collision at home plate, she’d drop it? That seems pretty complicated. > [@](#): > > And for the record, it takes about 16 seconds to run the bases…and in that span of time, yes, you can make a decision about whether or not to throw the game. Yes, you certainly could. But in the context of making a film, it’s a pretty odd choice to have a character do a full reversal and not give a clear indication that it’s happening. I agree that the ending is somewhat ambiguous. But Kit winning legitimately seems to be the Occam’s Razor interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/58 "2011-12-12T06:16:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Indians don’t win the World Series at the end of “Major League.” Okay, the Superbowl. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/59 "2011-12-12T17:08:57Z")
I’ve always thought that Kit took her out during the play at the plate. She didn’t drop it on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/60 "2011-12-12T19:10:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, the Superbowl. Whatever. No, you don’t understand; they didn’t go all the way. They made the playoffs, that was the big deal, but nothing was said about how they did in them. You find out in the sequel that they were blown out of the ALCS by the White Sox. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725.md?page=4)