# Settle a debate: In A League of Their Own... \[OPEN SPOILERS IN THREAD\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 10, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725 "2011-12-10T12:42:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/81 "2011-12-13T00:59:38Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Uh… the underdog overcomes in every sports movie ever. You think all those games were thrown? But in all other sports movies the underdog wins by winning; they come up big, using heart, grit, determination, and perhaps some unexpected tactics to defeat the champion. _There is always an explanation as to why they succeed._ The Indians win because they’ve got a lot of natural talent and they learn to believe in themselves. Rocky almost wins, and then later wins, because he has more heart and determination than Apollo Creed can punch out of him. The inmates beat the guards because they’re motivated by a desire for dignity and triumph, and by the way they have an NFL quarterback. The U.S. hockey team wins because they use their youth to skate their opponents into the ground. Jim Morris makes the big leagues because he can throw the ball 97 miles an hour. Indeed, underdog movies are often built around explaining why the underdog wins - half of “The Karate Kid” is spent telling you how he becomes good at karate. But “A League Of Their Own” doesn’t explain it. Why does Kit catch up to the high fastball, and why does Dottie drop the ball? There are lots of movies about underdogs winning, but I can’t think of a single other movie, not one, in which the underdog wins\*\* because the opposing team’s star makes a really phony-looking error.\*\* Again, I’m not saying Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, but I’m very certain Penny Marshall dropped the ball. The only way the film’s dramatic arc works is if Kit knocked the ball loose; as has been explained more times than I can count, if Dottie drops the ball, that makes the entire movie cynical, makes Dottie a dishonest jerk, and is completely contrary to the movie’s tone. There shouldn’t be any ambiguity; that there is a debate at all is evidence the movie’s conclusion was ill made. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/82 "2011-12-13T01:17:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Again, I’m not saying Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, but I’m very certain Penny Marshall dropped the ball. The only way the film’s dramatic arc works is if Kit knocked the ball loose; as has been explained more times than I can count, if Dottie drops the ball, that makes the entire movie cynical, makes Dottie a dishonest jerk, and is completely contrary to the movie’s tone. There shouldn’t be any ambiguity; that there is a debate at all is evidence the movie’s conclusion was ill made. There is debate because no one seems to be looking at the clip showing Dottie getting plowed and losing the ball when her head and hand smashes into the dirt. There’s no delay between her hitting the ground and the ball popping out. As for how Kit hit the high heat, well that happens sometimes. How did Kirk Gibson hit a home run on a sprained ankle? How did a journeyman pitcher throw a perfect game against the powerhouse Dodgers? How did Randy Johnson make a seagull explode? Things happen sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/83 "2011-12-13T01:29:10Z")
I have played the catcher position. I have been hit by runners at full speed trying to get me to drop the ball. usually, they failed. But every now and then, they succeeded. From what I remember, Kit had the will of a locomotive. She was PetemutherfuckingRose coming down that line and Dottie was Ray Fosse. Dottie came back to WIN. She was a BALLPLAYER. If she wanted to help Kit, she would have kept driving to Oregon. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/84 "2011-12-13T01:34:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But in all other sports movies the underdog wins by winning; they come up big, using heart, grit, determination, and perhaps some unexpected tactics to defeat the champion. _There is always an explanation as to why they succeed._ The Indians win because they’ve got a lot of natural talent and they learn to believe in themselves. Rocky almost wins, and then later wins, because he has more heart and determination than Apollo Creed can punch out of him. The inmates beat the guards because they’re motivated by a desire for dignity and triumph, and by the way they have an NFL quarterback. The U.S. hockey team wins because they use their youth to skate their opponents into the ground. Jim Morris makes the big leagues because he can throw the ball 97 miles an hour. Indeed, underdog movies are often built around explaining why the underdog wins - half of “The Karate Kid” is spent telling you how he becomes good at karate. > > But “A League Of Their Own” doesn’t explain it. Why does Kit catch up to the high fastball, and why does Dottie drop the ball? > > There are lots of movies about underdogs winning, but I can’t think of a single other movie, not one, in which the underdog wins\*\* because the opposing team’s star makes a really phony-looking error.\*\* > > Again, I’m not saying Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, but I’m very certain Penny Marshall dropped the ball. The only way the film’s dramatic arc works is if Kit knocked the ball loose; as has been explained more times than I can count, if Dottie drops the ball, that makes the entire movie cynical, makes Dottie a dishonest jerk, and is completely contrary to the movie’s tone. There shouldn’t be any ambiguity; that there is a debate at all is evidence the movie’s conclusion was ill made. Wait, you cite motivation like twelve thousand times, then say there’s no reason given for Kit making Dottie drop the ball?! I have a hard time taking that seriously. As for getting a hit… so? Kit likes the high fast ones. She wouldn’t like them if she never hit them, however rare. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/85 "2011-12-13T02:05:13Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > She’s shown as an infallible catcher for the entire film until her one mistake. Purposeful. If baseball teaches us anything, it’s that no one is infallible. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/86 "2011-12-13T02:27:07Z")
Well for one, the end of the movie is MEANT to be ambiguous, spawning discussions like this makes the movie more popular, and overall a more enjoyable experience. It’s been some time since I watched the movie, but even at the very beginning, of the movie, wasn’t the reason that Dottie even joined the team at all was so that Kit could go? She wasn’t going to go until then right? And who says it needs to be a considered and thought through decision - it could have been a split second choice that she made to drop the ball. For the duration of the movie, Dottie never really cared about baseball, and to have someone choose family over friends wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/87 "2011-12-13T05:19:23Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Uh… Such a stupid way to start a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/88 "2011-12-13T05:36:33Z")
Why the _FUCK_ is this movie on (along with _Groundhog Day_) nearly fucking constantly on the shit-ass movie channels? Really? Is that what I’m paying an ass-ton of money a month for? These two shit-ass movies? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/89 "2011-12-13T05:36:35Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Such a stupid way to start a rebuttal. Care to address the content of said rebuttal? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/90 "2011-12-13T05:54:27Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Why the _FUCK_ is this movie on (along with _Groundhog Day_) nearly fucking constantly on the shit-ass movie channels? Really? Is that what I’m paying an ass-ton of money a month for? These two shit-ass movies? You’re threadshitting. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/91 "2011-12-13T06:28:41Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > There is debate because no one seems to be looking at the clip showing Dottie getting plowed and losing the ball when her head and hand smashes into the dirt. There’s no delay between her hitting the ground and the ball popping out. I’ve only seen the movie in bits and pieces, so I don’t have the full context. But that scene, as filmed and presented, does not in any way indicate to me Dottie’s actions were purposeful. I tend to agree, though, that the actual screenplay leans more toward the purposeful interpretation: > [@](#): > > Her bare hand, holding the ball, separates from her glove hand. As Dottie lands on her back, the bare hand strikes the ground. After a brief moment, the baseball leaves gently OUT OF dottie’s hand, onto the grass. [emphasis in the script, not mine.] ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/92 "2011-12-13T11:54:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’ve only seen the movie in bits and pieces, so I don’t have the full context. But that scene, as filmed and presented, does not in any way indicate to me Dottie’s actions were purposeful. > > I tend to agree, though, that the actual screenplay leans more toward the purposeful interpretation: > > [emphasis in the script, not mine.] Funny, the script quote makes me see it more as unintentional! ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/93 "2011-12-13T13:21:22Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Agreed. The scene gives no reason at all to think the ball was dropped on purpose. I disagree on this point in particular. Dottie’s hand hits the ground, then her fingers open and the ball rolls out of her hand. She clearly has control of the ball all the way, and after the impact, her hand relaxes and the ball rolls clear. It does not roll in the direction her arm was moving, which makes it even more clear that there is a slight delay. This does not mean that she dropped the ball on purpose, but it does make it hard to tell for sure. I think it makes a better story if the impact with the ground makes her drop the ball, rather than her dropping the ball on purpose. But the way the scene is shot leaves it ambiguous from a physical perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/94 "2011-12-13T14:01:16Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > HOWEVER, no such delay exists in the final film, making me believe that what the screenwriter wanted was overruled by a director who obviously understood the characters and how a professional athlete would act. Dottie was not a professional athlete in any sense other than collecting a paycheck. She was a good ballplayer, but that was not her life’s ambition. She wanted her husband/family life. Kit was the opposite. Baseball was all she had going on. Dottie knew that, and put her sis over the best way she could. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/95 "2011-12-13T14:16:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There are lots of movies about underdogs winning, but I can’t think of a single other movie, not one, in which the underdog wins\*\* because the opposing team’s star makes a really phony-looking error.\*\* Actually, ROCKY II comes pretty close. I mean, I know you wrote that _“Rocky almost wins, and then later wins, because he has more heart and determination than Apollo Creed can punch out of him”_ – but the fight in ROCKY II plays out _ **exactly** _ like the fight in ROCKY, with Apollo breaking our hero’s nose in the first round and leading on points going into the final round, such that cornerman and commentators alike spell out that Apollo just needs to again play it safe for the easy win – but this time Apollo goes for the knockout, surprising the guys at ringside and irritating his trainer, until he and Rocky are both on the ground. And then Apollo starts to get up, but sits down by the nine count; the question is, do the acting talents of Carl Weathers bump that from phony to ambiguous? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/96 "2011-12-13T14:30:14Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Funny, the script quote makes me see it more as unintentional! Not sure how to explain the “after a brief moment” other than as intending to signal a purposeful dropping. There is no such brief moment in the actual film though. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/97 "2011-12-13T14:34:45Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > I disagree on this point in particular. Dottie’s hand hits the ground, then her fingers open and the ball rolls out of her hand. She clearly has control of the ball all the way, and after the impact, her hand relaxes and the ball rolls clear. This is weird. It’s like you’re looking at a color chip and calling it red, and I’m calling it blue. In clear lighting. I don’t see this at all. It’s like you’re describing a different clip. Not sure what to do about that. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/98 "2011-12-13T14:37:35Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t see this at all. It’s like you’re describing a different clip. Not sure what to do about that. We’re right and they’re wrong. It’s the only reasonable solution. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/99 "2011-12-13T15:31:30Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > My best friend and I (both of us the oldest in our families, both with younger sisters) rented this movie tons of times when we were teenagers in the mid-90s, and it never even occurred to me that Dottie might have deliberately dropped the ball until I saw the subject come up here. I was surprised that anyone would think that, as it would be a huge jerk move on Dottie’s part. And I say this as someone who has never followed or played sports even casually; I like _A League of Their Own_ because of the characters and setting, not because I’m into baseball. > > I’m not even particularly competitive when it comes to games, but the only situations in which I can see throwing any kind of competition would be either if I had been dragged into it and just wanted it to end or if I were playing with a small child or mentally handicapped person who would be disproportionately upset if they lost. In the particular situation depicted in _A League of Their Own_ Dottie would be betraying her teammates and treating her sister in an incredibly patronizing manner if she dropped the ball on purpose. I never knew it was up for debate until I saw it here and on IMDb boards. I just figured Kit won. And like you, I’m not a sports person, but it would be a truly horrible thing to do to her sister. It would cheapen this great moment. I agree that any real athlete would prefer to lose than to be patronized. I like threads like these because there are compelling sides for each argument. Deep down, I still believe Dottie dropped it by accident, though. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725/100 "2011-12-13T15:48:47Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Not sure how to explain the “after a brief moment” other than as intending to signal a purposeful dropping. > > There is no such brief moment in the actual film though. Or stage direction to create drama. “Will she hold onto the ball after such a big hit? Will she or her sister be the hero???” pause pause “She dropped the ball! Kit is a hero!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settle-a-debate-in-a-league-of-their-own-open-spoilers-in-thread/605725.md?page=6)