# Settling Accounts: The Grapple, by Harry Turtledove **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 23, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707 "2006-07-23T15:35:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/1 "2006-07-23T15:35:29Z")
I just got the book Friday and finished it today. Anybody else get it? Read it? Some new viewpoint characters, some old viewpoint characters dies, and I think he’s really managed to set stuff up for the last book ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/2 "2006-07-23T16:07:25Z")
Amazon says it’s not out till Tuesday. I really wish his editors would cut out all those redundant passages he likes to use. Okay, we get that Sam Carstens sunburns easily. We got it the fifteenth time you mentioned it, in fact. Since Pittsburgh was Stalingrad, I wonder what’s going to be the Battle of the Bulge. Indianapolis? Also wondering what the postwar situation in the Confederacy is going to look like. Does the US have the manpower to occupy both it and Canada? Will the few remaining blacks emigrate to Liberia? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/3 "2006-07-23T17:27:40Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > Since Pittsburgh was Stalingrad, I wonder what’s going to be the Battle of the Bulge. Indianapolis? The CSA strikes over the Appalachians into the US flank in Tennessee. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/4 "2006-07-23T17:34:14Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > Since Pittsburgh was Stalingrad, I wonder what’s going to be the Battle of the Bulge. Indianapolis? The CSA strikes over the Appalachians into the US flank in Tennessee. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/5 "2006-07-25T20:42:04Z")
Since I apparently got the book early, and **Neidhart** says it’s out today, I’m giving this thread a bump. Anybody get the book? Plan to get the book? Design a new tank design that the government sat on for years? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/6 "2006-07-25T20:50:33Z")
I may have read Turtledove, but not this. Anyone care to spoil it for me? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/7 "2006-07-25T21:55:54Z")
Well, if you’ve read the other books in the series, you probably should read this one as well. If you haven’t, I’d suggest you pickup the series. The big story in this book is: Morrel leads a US attack down through Kentucky and Tennesee and into Georgia, stopping a attempted Confederate counterattack into his flank. Meanwhile, Gen. Dowling finally manages to capture Camp Determination. and the book is largely how the various characters fit into those events, help influence them, and are affected by them. If you’re wondering what the series is about: The US lost the Civil War and the south gained its independence. This led to an altered World War I, where the USA fought the CSA. The USA won WWI, and the Confederate loss led to all sorts of social, political, and economic problems in the CSA. Taking advantage of the chaos, a militaristic, racist party, the Freedom Party (analogue to the Nazis) was able to take power, and it’s leader, Jake Featherston (analogue to Hitler) established himself as dictator, and started exterminating the blacks and starting a war with the USA. The series is about that war (just like previous series in the alternate world were about WWI and the interwar years). ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/8 "2006-07-25T22:06:38Z")
I plan to get it this Saturday, so I’m rereading _Drive to the East_ to refresh my memory. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/9 "2006-07-25T22:48:08Z")
Ever since I got into this series a couple of years ago, I’ve picked up the books the day they came out…this one, not so much. I’m just starting to lose interest in the story. My thing is, what’s the point when he’s just parralelling our history? From the beginning, we knew who would win and how they would. He’s gone out of his way to make Featherston more Hitler-like. I’ll probably pick it up in a couple of weeks, for the simple fact that I’ve read all the other ones, I might as well finish the series. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/10 "2006-07-25T23:01:24Z")
I got it last week and finished it then. I planned to start a thread but got caught up in work. Feh, it happens. I liked this one better than the last few. Better sense of pacing and storyline. I think it helps that it’s covering a smaller time scale than some of the others. I remain downright angry that Scipio was killed. I had hoped he’d get to lead some sort of reborn black republic and get his ‘I AM SCIPIO’ moment. But Turtledove is certainly like that. And poor Hip! Again, a good book. A bit predictable but that’s the nature of the beast given how he’s trying to stick to real world historical events here. Which I find a bit much but hell, it’s his show. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/11 "2006-07-25T23:24:41Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Ever since I got into this series a couple of years ago, I’ve picked up the books the day they came out…this one, not so much. Thanks for the spoilers about the series. I’ll leave it alone. 🙂 May I recomend William Sanders _Wild Blue and the Gray_ instead? ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/12 "2006-07-25T23:36:30Z")
I own the entire series. Thanks for reminding me it’s coming out! Now to rush over to Amazon. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/13 "2006-07-26T02:32:40Z")
Dave got lost at the bookstore on the way home, and brought home this book with him. He has disappeared upstairs somewhere, and so has the book. I don’t imagine it’ll take him too long to read it and to post his thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/14 "2006-07-26T06:38:22Z")
Well, I did buy the book tonight, and I’ve been reading it. I peeked at the spoilers here because I’m weak that way, and also because the military spoilers don’t bother me that much. Turtledove is paralelling WWII the way it actually happened, so that finding the [del]Nazis[/del], er…Confederates, attacked thru Tennesse for their Battle of the Bulge doesn’t bother me much. I am much more into the story and the characters. I find myself reading this series with a horrified fascination. As a historian, I can see how very, very easily that could have been us. If you want to understand history, you have to realize that people are people. What Hitler did to the Jews is by no means unique to the Germans, We, us, AMERICANS, could easily have done the same thing, had history turned out differently. This series rubs our nose in that fact. Forcefully. Anyone who denies that fact is a fool. We are so bloodly lucky to have this country, warts and all, as it is now. Now, as for the book itself, I agree with Jonathan Chance 100%. I just read the death he talks about in his spoiler, and it really pisses me off. Damnit, I liked Scipio a lot. A whole fuck of a lot. I thought he was going to be the one who gave us our POV WRT the liberation of the camp, but instead he’s just dead. Perhaps that’s why Turtledove is the author and I’m not. Killing Scipio makes it personal (as if it wasn’t personal enough. It was Harry, believe me, it was. You didn’t have to go that far). I’m about 100 pages into the book. The big question I have is this: Are Potter and Forrest going to launch their own version of the General’s Plot angainst Featherstone? It seems they must, the story has been leading up to it, but will they be successful? I doubt it, but that’s the thing I want to find out. I suspect I’ll ahve to wait for the next book. (BTW, anyone who want’s to post about this particular subject who has read the whole thing, if Turtledove adresses it, would you do me a favor? Mark it as a “Weirddave Spoiler” so I don’t peek. You will have my gratitude) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/15 "2006-07-26T14:05:06Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > And poor Hip! Yeah, but regarding poor Hip[! there was really no good way for that storyline to end. At least he was able to see the enomity of the Confederate actions and have remorse for his part of them. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/16 "2006-07-26T17:57:36Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Ever since I got into this series a couple of years ago, I’ve picked up the books the day they came out…this one, not so much. > > I’m just starting to lose interest in the story. My thing is, what’s the point when he’s just parralelling our history? From the beginning, we knew who would win and how they would. He’s gone out of his way to make Featherston more Hitler-like. I’ll probably pick it up in a couple of weeks, for the simple fact that I’ve read all the other ones, I might as well finish the series. That’s exactly the vibe I get from the whole thing. And he’s actually had to twist and turn every step to get to the parallels he’s seeking. For instance: The pre-WWII Germany had one big problem in the balkanization of its party system and therefore, no-one could form a working government, which in turn led to current day law which forces them to have at least 5% of the votes to gain representation in parliament. The CSA in the book is far more stable in that sense; it has at most three contending parties and even has a strong predominance of one party (Whigs). This difference has been all but forgotten in Featherston’s rise to power, and it would have made the whole thing much more interesting to me at least. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/17 "2006-07-26T18:34:17Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > I’m just starting to lose interest in the story. My thing is, what’s the point when he’s just parralelling our history? From the beginning, we knew who would win and how they would. He’s gone out of his way to make Featherston more Hitler-like. I’ll probably pick it up in a couple of weeks, for the simple fact that I’ve read all the other ones, I might as well finish the series. He does that in a lot of his books, though. For example, “In the Presence of Mine Enemies” was based on the breakup of the Soviet Union, “The Misplaced Legion” was based on an (altered) battle of Manzikert, “The Time of Troubles” series based on Heraclius, and the Krispos series based on Basil the Macedonian. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/18 "2006-07-26T19:06:46Z")
Is there an analog to WW2 Japan in the series? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/19 "2006-07-26T20:42:33Z")
Speaking of Japan, I simply can’t see what motive Japan has for attacking the USA in this timeline. In our timeline Japan needed to destroy the US fleet so they could occupy the American Phillipines, Dutch East Indies, French Indochina, and British Malaysia. But in the How Few Remain timeline, the US is an enemy of Britain and France, and I suppose the Netherlands as well. So Japan and the USA should be allies against the European colonial powers. The US would encourage Japan to occupy those colonies, we would encourage them against the Tsarist Russians. And in this timeline the US never seized the Phillipines from Spain and the USA only recieved the Sandwich Islands from Britain in WWI. I’m not sure what side Spain was on in the alternate WWI and WWII, but Japan shouldn’t have much trouble taking the Phillipines from Spain. In fact, in this timeline Japan should be be pretty much unopposed in Asia, without the USA to bail out the Europeans and Chinese. I kept expecting Japan to take the place the USSR took in our timeline…a hostile power that nevertheless was allied to the USA due to convergent war aims. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707/20 "2006-07-26T23:38:28Z")
Well, Japan was one of the Entente powers during WWI, because they wanted Samoa, the Carolines and German enclaves in China. One of the big things that led them to fall out with Britain after WWI was that, even though they were victorious, they didn’t feel they were rewarded enough at Versailles…they didn’t get Western Samoa or the Chinese enclaves, and were forced to sign treaties putting their navy at a disadvantage (the Washington and London Naval Treaties). Since none of this happened in this timeline, they had no reason to turn against their former British and French allies, and since their WWI enemies Germany and the US still control Chinese enclaves and Samoa, the Carolines, the Marianas, and Palau, they still would be an ally. And, btw, in this timeline, Japan and Spain fought a war at the beginning of the 20th century, where Spain lost the Phillipines and Guam to Japan. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/settling-accounts-the-grapple-by-harry-turtledove/365707.md?page=2)