# Seven underage kids killed in car crash - Grandfather dies later when he finds out **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733 "2006-01-26T18:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/21 "2006-01-26T19:56:04Z")
From the story, if those 7 kids had not been driving illegally, the truck would have smashed into the bus – 7 fewer deaths, plus probably a more seriously injured bus driver. Unlicensed drivers often do cause accidents, but the car driver in this case did not cause the accident. If you want to stop accidents like this happening, you need to look at making it less likely that truck drivers will go to sleep at the wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/22 "2006-01-26T20:03:37Z")
> [@](#): > > I disagree. The driver had dropped one kid off and was on her way home prior to going to church. I agree that there should have been a licensed driver behind the wheel, but that does not change the fact that the carload of kids was where was supposed to be. This is an important point. The car might well have been in the same place, given the schedule, regardless of who was driving. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/23 "2006-01-26T20:04:25Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I disagree. The driver had dropped one kid off and was on her way home prior to going to church. I agree that there should have been a licensed driver behind the wheel, but that does not change the fact that the carload of kids was where was supposed to be. That’s not quite it. I think what **Mr. Blue Sky** is saying that the carload of kids should not have been a carload of kids. Had the driver been 16 with a license, there wouldn’t be any problem unless Florida is one of those states with a law against teenagers driving a group of children around. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/24 "2006-01-26T20:17:50Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > That’s not quite it. I think what **Mr. Blue Sky** is saying that the carload of kids should not have been a carload of kids. I don’t follow your logic here. If there had been a fully-licensed adult driver behind the wheel, then the 15-year-old who was the driver in the accident would likely have been a passenger instead, and the carload of kmids would have been a carload of kids plus an adult driver. And they’d all be dead anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/25 "2006-01-26T20:18:10Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I disagree. The driver had dropped one kid off and was on her way home prior to going to church. I agree that there should have been a licensed driver behind the wheel, but that does not change the fact that the carload of kids was where was supposed to be. She should never have been taking anyone anywhere. If there was not adult available, then other transportation should have been arranged. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/26 "2006-01-26T20:19:08Z")
Here’s a thought, the children had to be taken home. The 15 year old is the one who was doing it. Would it somehow have been less of a tragedy if it had been “six children and one adult” who died in such a horrible, completely avoidable way, as opposed to “seven children”? And maybe it would have been “seven children and one adult” who died if the driver who died didn’t start out from her house, and needed to get home too? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/27 "2006-01-26T20:28:57Z")
Can anyone say if all the children who died all needed to go to the same home, or was it different destinations? It almost seems as if all of the seven who died needed to go to the same house, so even if they had been following the law, it really would have meant one more death. I contend, that we should be most upset at the truck driver, since he wouldn’t have slammed into the car if he had been paying attention. > [@full story about the crash](#): > > The accident occurred **in good weather** along a **straight stretch of road** that has a **posted speed limit of 60 mph**. > > “ **There doesn’t seem to be any reason why the semi could not observe the two vehicles stopped** ,” Leeper said. “ **For some reason \*\* – we’re still trying to determine why –** he did not stop\*\*.” > [@from the article the OP linked](#): > > Initial estimates show Wilkerson’s truck traveling between **50 mph and 65 mph** when it struck the Manns’ car, police said. The tractor-trailer left no skid marks, police told CNN Thursday. But \*\*there were marks on the road indicating Wilkerson veered away only after the initial impact. \*\* Bolding mine. So, the truck driver might also have been speeding some. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/28 "2006-01-26T20:29:53Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > She should never have been taking anyone anywhere. If there was not adult available, then other transportation should have been arranged. You’re right, **Mr. Blue Sky** , she shouldn’t have been driving without an adult in the car. The fact remains she was stopped behind the school bus, waiting for the light to change or whatever, and it was the _semi_ that cause the accident. If this guy had slammed into the school bus I think more kids would have been killed on the bus, because there are no seat belts on school buses (except for the driver.) Horrible tragedy. All seven children, foster kids that had been adopted, and the grandfather. I honestly don’t see what you’re pitting here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/29 "2006-01-26T20:30:12Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > If there was not adult available, then other transportation should have been arranged. Like I said, the carload of kids shouldn’t have been a carload of kids. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/30 "2006-01-26T20:35:47Z")
So **Mr. Blue Sky** and **Lute Skywatcher** , are you both contending that it should have been 8 different vehicles transporting the kids? (Since the young driver had “just dropped off one kid”) 😕 What if the seven who died all lived in the same house, that’s terribly inefficient, and a waste of gasoline to have one child per car. I don’t think either of you are being wholly logical here. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/31 "2006-01-26T20:37:24Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > If this guy had slammed into the school bus I think more kids would have been killed on the bus, because there are no seat belts on school buses (except for the driver.) Depends on how well the bus was built and how fast the truck was going. > [@](#): > > [Balranald, NSW: Semi-trailer/School Bus Collision](http://www.ema.gov.au/ema/emadisasters.nsf/0/a81da629c3dec12eca256d3300057f1c?OpenDocument) > People Killed 2 > People Injured 21 ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/32 "2006-01-26T20:38:33Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > The article said the driver of the truck had some prior dings on his record, including two citations for operating a vehicle not is safe condition(2000 and 2001) and had once had his license suspended and was cited when he drove anyway. I wonder if the truck driver is being watched as a suicide risk? He’s not in custody, yet, and he might take the easy way out. Well, Jesus Christ, let him! Poor bastard-- I can’t imagine living with the knowledge that I killed seven kids. Are you wanting to keep him alive so he can be punished? If he’s anything like me, _nothing_ the state could do to me would be as bad as living with that guilt and self-hatred. In his defense, truck maintenance is the company’s responsibility. I personally know of a local company where the driver threw a fit because he knew his truck was unsafe and was told by his employer he could either drive it or lose his job. Yeah, I guess he could have reported the safety violation, but when looking at a virtual certainty that he’ll be out of a job, or the _potential_ for an accident that might not/probably won’t happen, he just keep his mouth shut. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying that it happens. Now, if he was the owner/operator, that’s a whole different ball of wax. Still, I’d lay money that he’s in his own personal hell right now. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/33 "2006-01-26T20:42:16Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > She should never have been taking anyone anywhere. If there was not adult available, then other transportation should have been arranged. Absolutely. But it didn’t happen that way, we don’t know why she was driving them, we are not in position to make a value judgment on the parents, and they’re dead so recriminations are kinda useless at this point. “But, but, but, they shouldn’t have been there…” yes, we know, you’ve said that or alluded to it numerous times, even after people have agreed with you. So, would it be possible to get past that? ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/34 "2006-01-26T20:43:34Z")
When I was 15 in Maine, we were allowed to get our licenses as long as we took Driver’s Ed. There were no restrictions on numbers of passengers, or time of day. The age is now 16, IINM. To say that’s the problem is like saying it’s a problem to have sex with a 17 year old because some other state set 18 as the legal age. The puzzling thing here, to me, is what kind of family has 7 adopted foster kids? And they’re going to church in the middle of the day? And one is named Heaven? I’ve never known any family anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/35 "2006-01-26T20:43:59Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > Here’s a thought, the children had to be taken home. The 15 year old is the one who was doing it. Would it somehow have been less of a tragedy if it had been “six children and one adult” who died in such a horrible, completely avoidable way, as opposed to “seven children”? And maybe it would have been “seven children and one adult” who died if the driver who died didn’t start out from her house, and needed to get home too? It’d be a tragedy no matter what, but if they had waited for an adult to take them home, it would be likely they’d be alive right now. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/36 "2006-01-26T20:44:22Z")
> [@Dung Beetle](#): > > The fifteen year old was driving the others home from school. If that is the case, she might very well have been within the law to drive home from school without a licensed driver in the car with her. **IIRC** , (I might be mis-remembering) in Kansas a child with a learner’s permit can go to and from school/school functions, work, and run errands for their parent with no need for a licensed driver in the car with them. They have to take the most direct route there and back, and have a note from a guardian in the case of errands. I’m not sure if her dropping the other kid off home would have been breaking the rules or not. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/37 "2006-01-26T20:45:04Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > So **Mr. Blue Sky** and **Lute Skywatcher** , are you both contending that it should have been 8 different vehicles transporting the kids? Where do you get that? They could have waited until an adult was avaialable, took a bus, etc. I doubt the car was at the school the whole time, what with the 3-year-old and the toddler on board. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/38 "2006-01-26T20:45:37Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Well, Jesus Christ, let him! Poor bastard-- I can’t imagine living with the knowledge that I killed seven kids. Are you wanting to keep him alive so he can be punished? If he’s anything like me, _nothing_ the state could do to me would be as bad as living with that guilt and self-hatred. No doubt! If that was me, they’d have to suicide-watch me a long fucking time…and then I’d do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/39 "2006-01-26T20:46:51Z")
She could still have been counted as running errands for a guardian though. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/40 "2006-01-26T20:47:52Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > If that is the case, she might very well have been within the law to drive home from school without a licensed driver in the car with her. Not in Florida. She’d have to be 16 with a full license. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733.md?page=3)