# Seven underage kids killed in car crash - Grandfather dies later when he finds out **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733 "2006-01-26T18:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/41 "2006-01-26T20:48:58Z")
[cite](http://www.floridanext.com/cars_sports/article_view.asp?id=406) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/42 "2006-01-26T20:51:01Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > That’s not quite it. I think what **Mr. Blue Sky** is saying that the carload of kids should not have been a carload of kids. > > Had the driver been 16 with a license, there wouldn’t be any problem unless Florida is one of those states with a law against teenagers driving a group of children around. Well, if it wouldn’t have been a carload of kids, what else could it have been? A wagon made out of magical wish-granting planks? The kids still would have needed a ride. They still would have been there. They still would have gotten killed. Plus, if the driver wasn’t worried about breaking the law by driving without a license, she certainly wouldn’t have been worried about driving with more than one passenger, so _nothing would have changed._ ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/43 "2006-01-26T20:52:02Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > It’d be a tragedy no matter what, but if they had waited for an adult to take them home, it would be likely they’d be alive right now. And if your mom had balls she’d be your dad. Blah blah blah. Look, even the police said that nothing the girl did caused the accident. it was a wrong place, wrong time kind of accident, and it could have happened to anyone at any time anywhere in the world. “What if” theoreticals are entirely useless for that very reason. What if a meteor struck the Earth with enough force to blow it up? What if your grandfather had been killed by Charley Starkweather? What if life had never formed? What if, what if, what if… it doesn’t matter. It’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/44 "2006-01-26T20:52:30Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > From the story, if those 7 kids had not been driving illegally, the truck would have smashed into the bus – 7 fewer deaths, plus probably a more seriously injured bus driver. Unlicensed drivers often do cause accidents, but the car driver in this case did not cause the accident. Probably not…that van cushioned the bus…those injuries on the bus could have become deaths, and the rest of them could have been more critically hurt. Had she also done something illegal like driving past a parked bus (unloading children), a crash was still bound to happen between the truck and bus…and buses don’t offer that much more protection by the additional weight. > [@](#): > > If you want to stop accidents like this happening, you need to look at making it less likely that truck drivers will go to sleep at the wheel. That’s the root cause. Even if the 15 year old was not there with her van full of siblings, we would have had a different headline but the names of the dead would be different and we would still have this thread…an alternate story likely could have been… **Fiery crash kills 7 school children, 3 more critically hurt Tractor-trailer rear-ends school bus** ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/45 "2006-01-26T20:52:37Z")
> [@Trunk](#): > > The puzzling thing here, to me, is what kind of family has 7 adopted foster kids? And they’re going to church in the middle of the day? And one is named Heaven? > > I’ve never known any family anything like that. She has at least two other foster children. As for the church thing, I thought it was a bit odd too…but it was a Wednesday afternoon, and lots of churches have Wednesday evening services. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/46 "2006-01-26T20:53:40Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Well, if it wouldn’t have been a carload of kids, what else could it have been? A wagon made out of magical wish-granting planks? The kids still would have needed a ride. They still would have been there. They still would have gotten killed. Please read posts #35 & 37. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/47 "2006-01-26T20:54:13Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > It’d be a tragedy no matter what, but if they had waited for an adult to take them home, it would be likely they’d be alive right now. Which has really _nothing_ to do with the legality of the driver, and everything to do with complete circumstance. What if the kids had other plans to get home? What if the driver had stopped to get gas and so wasn’t on that stretch of road at that exact time? What is the point of this speculation? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/48 "2006-01-26T20:57:53Z")
As others have said, even if her mother had driven to school to pick them up, it is very possible that it would have been all seven children and the mother who died in that incident, given that the mother would have been to the school before it got out, and they would have left school at pretty much the same time. They very probably would still have been held up behind the school bus. The fact that she was underage and ferrying other children (despite the law where she lived) is moot. She didn’t cause the wreck, and very likely would have still been in the wreck had an adult been driving. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Iggins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Iggins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggins)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/49 "2006-01-26T20:58:08Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > It’d be a tragedy no matter what, but if they had waited for an adult to take them home, it would be likely they’d be alive right now. Can you explain how it would be “likely” that they would be alive? If an adult had the driving duties, with the same route and schedule, wouldn’t the van still be stopped behind the bus? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/50 "2006-01-26T20:59:00Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > They could have waited until an adult was avaialable, took a bus, etc. Ixnay on the usbay, AFAICT. Apparently, of the 690 workers aged 16 and over in this family’s hometown of [Lake Butler, Florida](http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/incomeCommute.php?locIndex=8646) (pop. 1,927), exactly zero of them use public transportation to get to work. Probably there simply is no public transit there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/51 "2006-01-26T21:01:36Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > It’d be a tragedy no matter what, but if they had waited for an adult to take them home, it would be likely they’d be alive right now. This just seems very weird to me. Think of all teh tragedies that have been avoided precisely **because** children didn’t wait for an adult to drive them home, but instead drove illegally home themselves. We don’t know about these tragedies, but they are just as likely to be avoided as this current tragedy was to occur. As for the family’s composition, when I was growing up we were friends with a family very similar to this, with about seven or eight children adopte from all over the world into a very religious family. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/52 "2006-01-26T21:01:37Z")
It is entirely possible that they didn’t qualify to ride the school bus, because they lived too close to the school, or the school bus routes didn’t go into the region where they lived. And, as has been pointed out numerous times, anyone else driving the car ferrying them would likely have been in the accident too given the timing of events. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/53 "2006-01-26T21:02:39Z")
To Ethilrist & Airman Doors: There is obviously no way to undo what has happened. The point is that the mother allowed her daughter to break the law and she has paid for her poor judgement with the lives of seven of her children and, indirectly, her father. The driver should have never been allowed on the road. Period. Maybe this will be a wake-up call for other parents, but I seriously doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/54 "2006-01-26T21:04:44Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Probably not…that van cushioned the bus…those injuries on the bus could have become deaths, and the rest of them could have been more critically hurt. Had she also done something illegal like driving past a parked bus (unloading children), a crash was still bound to happen between the truck and bus…and buses don’t offer that much more protection by the additional weight. Buses are more sturdy than you seem to think. [Here’s an instance of a truck hitting a school bus at an estimated 70 MPH, with two fatalities on the bus](http://www.ncsbs.org/crashreports/crashreports2001_4.htm). > [@the accident report](#): > > May 31, 2001. 10 children and 1 adult driver were involved in an accident in which a semi truck ran a stop sign on an exit ramp and hit the bus full speed (approximately 70 miles per hour). The impact of the hit knocked the box frame of the bus off of the frame (wheels). As the bus rolled, it came to rest on its driver side. Three students were partially ejected from the bus. Two have died, one is in critical condition, and the rest are injured. … ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/55 "2006-01-26T21:05:11Z")
**Mr. Blue Sky** you can’t keep children in bubble wrap forever. I agree, that ideally laws shouldn’t be broken. I think however, that Kansas laws are common sense, and I don’t see why other states don’t have similar laws. (Refer to post number 36 for Kansas laws.) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/56 "2006-01-26T21:09:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ixnay on the usbay, AFAICT. Apparently, of the 690 workers aged 16 and over in this family’s hometown of [Lake Butler, Florida](http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/incomeCommute.php?locIndex=8646) (pop. 1,927), exactly zero of them use public transportation to get to work. Probably there simply is no public transit there. Lake Butler has some sort of public transportation, I checked before I posted about taking the bus. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/57 "2006-01-26T21:09:31Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > Maybe this will be a wake-up call for other parents, but I seriously doubt it. No, and why should it? Reactive decision-making is rarely logical and seldom effective, instinctive as it may be–look at all the post-9/11 lawmaking which has resulted in nothing but inconvenience to travellers with roughly zero increase in overall security. In this case, the accident was not the result of an unlicensed minor behind the wheel. Even if an adult _had_ driven the children instead, this fact would not have altered the children’s schedule; ergo, it is highly likely that the vehicle would have been in the same place at roughly the same time, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/58 "2006-01-26T21:11:56Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > To Ethilrist & Airman Doors: > > There is obviously no way to undo what has happened. The point is that the mother allowed her daughter to break the law and she has paid for her poor judgement with the lives of seven of her children and, indirectly, her father. IT DOESN’T MATTER. It was not the girl’s fault. It was NOT a misjudgement, it was an accident. > [@](#): > > The driver should have never been allowed on the road. Period. Fine. That’s great. t was also great the first 15 times you said it. > [@](#): > > Maybe this will be a wake-up call for other parents, but I seriously doubt it. What are you blathering on about? Accidents happen. If you die in a car accident that is not your fault should we blame your family for letting you out of the house at the wrong time going to the wrong place in the wrong area? That’s just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/59 "2006-01-26T21:15:14Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > To Ethilrist & Airman Doors: > > There is obviously no way to undo what has happened. The point is that the mother allowed her daughter to break the law and she has paid for her poor judgement with the lives of seven of her children and, indirectly, her father. > > The driver should have never been allowed on the road. Period. > > Maybe this will be a wake-up call for other parents, but I seriously doubt it. This accident had nothing to do with kids breaking the law. It was 100% incidental that the driver was not legally supposed to be driving. This isn’t a wake-up for parents because it was exactly the sort of accident where the victims have no control over the situation. If I drove with a suspended license (a.k.a. not legal to drive) and got killed by a drunk driver in a pick-up truck who crosses the center line and hits me head-on, it would **not** be a ‘wake up call’ to illegal drivers to not drive illegally. There’s no correlation; my getting killed would be a matter of chance and coincidence, and would not be a result of my breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733/60 "2006-01-26T21:16:46Z")
I got my full driver’s license when I was 15 in Lousiana. My best friend got his a 14 because he had a farm (it was actually his farm, not his parent’s). 15 year olds are only underage by legal definition in some places. You can’t say what would have happened if the 15 year old wasn’t driving. That is the nature of chaos effects. A few seconds difference can make a huge difference in outcome and it just branches off from there without it being possible to predict the effects. Maybe the fact that these kids died will lead to a long chain of events that prevent the once inevitable China-U.S. nuclear showdown of 2018. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seven-underage-kids-killed-in-car-crash-grandfather-dies-later-when-he-finds-out/341733.md?page=4)