# Seventy bodies delivered to Baghdad morgue in six hours, many tortured and executed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733 "2006-05-14T14:11:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/21 "2006-05-14T23:19:58Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] It doesn’t matter if people ‘support’ attacks against Coalition targets, I’m aware that the majority of the population isn’t dumb enough to assume that their government (democratically elected and representative no matter how much you dislike it) is going to survive long as it is without major foreign support, supporting attacks and committing attacks aren’t one in the same thing. [/quote] How many regard it as _their_ government, and not a foreign puppet ? I also find your distinction between supporting and committing attacks fairly irrelevant. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Considering we side with neither sectarian group, whether the Iraqis believe it or not, we are a neutral party, if we sided with any group the implications for violence would be worse and would play into any rival groups propaganda. [/quote] We are _not_ a neutral party; we are the _enemy_. Foreign invaders; rapists, torturers and murderers. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] A foreign occupation, whether you like it or not, is UN Mandated until Iraqi security and government can get back on it’s feet, and in which a democratically elected government was put in place. [/quote] This is a US war, not a UN one. Nor is there any reason to believe Iraq will ever stabilize, especially with us there. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] That’s a very large brush to tarnish on every Iraqi citizen, it’s almost as if you’re declaring them to be too primative for the democratic process. [/quote] No, but we’ve subjected them to an inadvertant propaganda campaign in the form of the occupation, which might as well have been designed to convince them that “democracy” means chaos, violence, deprivation and poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/22 "2006-05-15T03:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** > > This is a US war, not a UN one. Nor is there any reason to believe Iraq will ever stabilize, especially with us there. That’s your opinion, however since the Iraqi economy is growing, people in Iraq have more political freedom than most of the countries surrounding them, and have exercised certain democratic political rights, I’ll say they’re on the right course, and it’s UN mandated that the MNF stay there until we’ve helped Iraqis build up security forces and government institutions with the ability to defend themselves and provide good services to the people of Iraq. No amounts of emotion you’re portraying is going to change this. > [@](#): > > We are not a neutral party; we are the enemy. Foreign invaders; rapists, torturers and murderers. :rolleyes: Of course we are, a term applicable to the insurgents, not the MNF. Self hating can only go so far. > [@](#): > > No, but we’ve subjected them to an inadvertant propaganda campaign in the form of the occupation, which might as well have been designed to convince them that “democracy” means chaos, violence, deprivation and poverty. Yet that ‘chaos violence and deprivation’ was there long before a US soldier set foot on Iraqi soil. It’s not an occupation anymore, like I said the UN mandated the MNF to assist the nascent Iraqi government and it’s security forces until the reached a point of self sufficiency. > [@](#): > > **Jimm** > > Irrelevant. You were telling us “fewer carbomings [sic] and suicide attacks”, courtesy of IBC figures. I’ve shown you that, regardless of diminishing car bombings, the death toll has recently gone up, more than doubling the previous month’s figures for the entire country in the capital city alone. Yes, in the capital city the death toll has gone up, but throughout the rest of the country the death toll has remained lower and consistent. Baghdad is an exception because of the size of the civilian population residing there. It’s not indicative of the rest of the country however. > [@](#): > > Irrelevant. Northern Ireland was in a PR government during the height of The Troubles too. No it wasn’t, it was subjected to direct rule from Westminister from 1972 until the good friday agreement of 1998. > [@](#): > > Anyway, my point was in response to Magiver’s proposition that “It’s not a civil war” due to the involvement of foreign fighters. If large numbers of the population (per the latest cited IBC numbers, that I note you have ignored) are being murdered for political or sectarian reasons daily, it’s approaching a civil war. Yet there are certain indicators that civil war will be avoided, apart from the bickering from certain sects of the population, all are committed to the political process they’ve become a part of. You’ve got clerics and Imams from both sides stating that they should join Iraqi security forces and defend the government from insurgents and foreign fighters, and the other side setting up a national reconcilation conference in June. If both sides were committed to fighting a civil war, there’d be no talks, no serious efforts to resolve the conflict raging. > [@](#): > > Tell that to Northern Ireland. Yes, I shall tell them that the original reasons as to why the British army went into Northern Ireland was to protect the Catholic minority from Protestant persecution. > [@](#): > > Less of the “we”. My government and military is deeply involved, but I’m sure as hell not prepared to identify with that involvement. Well I am. Suit yourself, I however do not like to flush peoples future down a toilet because certain people were opposed to this action because of the original reasons of why we went to war. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/23 "2006-05-15T03:17:04Z")
> [@](#): > > How many regard it as their government, and not a foreign puppet ? The majority of the population I seem to believe, hey, they elected them :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I also find your distinction between supporting and committing attacks fairly irrelevant. Why? I can say I support Man UTD, but it doesn’t mean _I play_ football or actually even enjoy watching it, supporting a cause and participating in it are two different things. Insurgents maybe supported in principle, defence of the homeland etc, but when it comes to their tactics, the fact that they do nothing to prevent a civil war from happening, is a very _different_ thing. Unless you’re suggesting everyone who supports the insurgents _is_ an insurgent? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/24 "2006-05-15T03:29:48Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] That’s your opinion, however since the Iraqi economy is growing, people in Iraq have more political freedom than most of the countries surrounding them, and have exercised certain democratic political rights, I’ll say they’re on the right course, and it’s UN mandated that the MNF stay there until we’ve helped Iraqis build up security forces and government institutions with the ability to defend themselves and provide good services to the people of Iraq. No amounts of emotion you’re portraying is going to change this. [/quote] And no amount of chest beating is going to make any of this true. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] :rolleyes: Of course we are, a term applicable to the insurgents, not the MNF. Self hating can only go so far. [/quote] WE invaded THEM; that’s not self hatred, it’s a simple fact. WE are the occupiers, WE are the enemy; simple as that. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Yet that ‘chaos violence and deprivation’ was there long before a US soldier set foot on Iraqi soil. [/quote] We _bombed_ them, wrecked their infrastructure and economy and their society in general. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] It’s not an occupation anymore, [/quote] Would we leave if they asked ? If not, it’s an occupation. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Yes, in the capital city the death toll has gone up, but throughout the rest of the country the death toll has remained lower and consistent. Baghdad is an exception because of the size of the civilian population residing there. [/quote] Yeah, more people to kill = higher death rate; so ? [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] The majority of the population I seem to believe, hey, they elected them :rolleyes: [/quote] In an election under a foriegn occupation; hardly valid. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Unless you’re suggesting everyone who supports the insurgents _is_ an insurgent? [/QUOTE] Pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/25 "2006-05-15T04:56:22Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Well Sherlock, it seems to me they’re pretty brutal and anti democratic from the sheer nature of how they carry out their insurgency. Baathists, would presumably want a return to pan arabian baathist government, or Sunni domination of Iraqi political life, and the Jihadist groups merely want to either destroy the Shia in a ridiculous religious war, or hit the Shia Iraqis so hard that they acceed to their demands of a Shariah state in the remnants of the Sunni heartlands. Both groups are NOT democratic. Remember, the Sunnis of Iraq have dominated Iraqi politics ever since the creation of the state by the UK, then they see the US come in and overturn that, it’s not going to be accepted lightly. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure why you can’t discuss this issue without the personal insult (Sherlock), but I never said the insurgents weren’t brutal. As for being anti-democratic, I was arguing that the term anti-democratic is too narrow and essentially meaningless to describe the insurgency. For the Sunni insurgency, it is the loss of power that motivates them. I certainly wouldn’t say that the insurgents aren’t brutal. I have lost a lot of colleagues here. A few weeks ago, one of my Iraqi colleagues was abducted, and tortured to death. They then dumped his body in a gutter. So don’t sit in your comfy living room and tell me they are brutal. But it doesn’t help anyone’s understanding of the situation to throw around terms like anti-democratic. It also doesn’t help to overplay the role of Zarqawi. His role in the insurgency appears to have been inflated by the US eager to show a foreign presence in the insurgency. By using terms like ‘anti-democratic,’ saying ‘they hate are freedoms,’ calling them ‘cowards’ and focusing on Zarqawi, we are reducing the enemy to cartoon characters. This might help us feel better, but it doesn’t help solve the problem. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] That’s a very large brush to tarnish on every Iraqi citizen, it’s almost as if you’re declaring them to be too primative for the democratic process. [/QUOTE] I am saying that the majority of the Iraqi people have no experience with democracy and with the exception of exile groups, never expressed a strong desire for democracy. I also think you are trying to label critics of this intervention as racists, which is a technique Bush used in several speeches. It is a strawman. Also, I’d like to know how you define democracy. Women now have less rights than they did under Hussein’s regime. Many of the parties that have been elected from the south have explicitly un-democratic platforms, including the establishment of a Shia theocracy. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Which doesn’t make any sense, power sharing is essential, for the lack of better terms, a ‘young democracy’ starting out. Lebanon has the same thing. [/QUOTE] Lebanon and Iraq have completely different cultures and histories. Lebanon has a history of greater openess and access to western ideas and culture. The nation also has a longer history of experimentation with democracy, extending at least to 1943. For the Lebanese, democracy has become an ideal that is accepted by a large segment of the society as something worth fighting for and working at. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Take into consideration though that when the Samarra mosque was hit, no one thought too seriously that it would be destroyed,. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what you mean by this. The attack on the mosque was an attempt to escalate sectarain violence. Essentially, they are trying to force people to choose sides in the coming civil war. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/26 "2006-05-15T04:59:35Z")
Well I screwed up the coding on that. Ryan\_Liam’s first quote should have ended with the sentence “it’s not going to be accepted lightly.” Can anyone fix this? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/27 "2006-05-15T09:55:20Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I can say I support Man UTD, but it doesn’t mean I play football or actually even enjoy watching it, supporting a cause and participating in it are two different things. Insurgents maybe supported in principle, defence of the homeland etc, but when it comes to their tactics, the fact that they do nothing to prevent a civil war from happening, is a very different thing. I see what you’re saying about nominal support not equating to full participation, but I don’t think that means that we can dismiss even nominal support as a negligible problem. After all, when we see polls saying that such-and-such number of Palestinians express support for suicide bombings or such-and-such number of Muslims worldwide express support for Osama bin Laden, we tend to consider that a bad sign (if the numbers are high, that is). We don’t just shrug and say “oh well, who cares if they support it as long as they’re not actually out there doing it.” ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/28 "2006-05-15T17:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** > > And no amount of chest beating is going to make any of this true. Then I don’t suppose you’ll find the Brooking institute report to be any worth. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > WE invaded THEM; that’s not self hatred, it’s a simple fact. WE are the occupiers, WE are the enemy; simple as that. Dude, when you proclaim that the ‘occupiers rape and pillage’ it’s not anything _but_ self hatred. You can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge the achievements the Iraqi people have accomplished besides the death and violence. Your emotion in your posts obviously blinds you to the facts, or you just use them to cover the lack of such? > [@](#): > > We bombed them, wrecked their infrastructure and economy and their society in general. Of course we did, but at least we’re willing to rebuild it, I suppose you won’t put the same judgements onto the last Iraqi government which pretty much bombed whoever it liked? Their infrastructure was already wrecked from the repressions, wars and murder that was inflicted onto the Iraqi population by their own government. > [@](#): > > Would we leave if they asked ? If not, it’s an occupation. I think present Coalition countries and the Bush Administration would want nothing more than to be asked to leave. Like I said before, the MNF forces are there by the request of the Iraqi government and mandated by the United Nations, if you have trouble believing this, then I suggest you find out about it. > [@](#): > > Yeah, more people to kill = higher death rate; so ? It’s not representative of the country on a whole, just that more terrorist organisations are concerntrating their attacks in Baghdad as symbolism that the country is in ‘state failure’ > [@](#): > > In an election under a foriegn occupation; hardly valid. Well prove to me it isn’t, considering the election has been endorsed by the UN and deemed valid, seems pretty valid to me, regardless whether or not you like the results. > [@](#): > > Pretty much. Then everyone who is an Irish Catholic in NI is a terrorist then, since 90% of them vote for the Sinn Fein, a group linked to the IRA. **madmonk28** > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why you can’t discuss this issue without the personal insult (Sherlock), but I never said the insurgents weren’t brutal. As for being anti-democratic, I was arguing that the term anti-democratic is too narrow and essentially meaningless to describe the insurgency. For the Sunni insurgency, it is the loss of power that motivates them. I have a feeling that Sunni Iraqi insurgents have the prospect, in the future, to follow methods of political action by the Catholics in NI to get what they want. [http://www.grokyourworld.com/louisxiv/2005/05/growing\_alienat.html](http://www.grokyourworld.com/louisxiv/2005/05/growing_alienat.html) Read this, it’s an articles from NYT, just on a blog, it’s an example of how Sunni Arabs are using ‘bullets and the ballot box’ to get into government. But you should understand, in an area still dealing with the emergence of democracy and rule of law, there are going to be groups like the ones in Iraq which will do anything to bring back the type of governance they controlled. > [@](#): > > I certainly wouldn’t say that the insurgents aren’t brutal. I have lost a lot of colleagues here. A few weeks ago, one of my Iraqi colleagues was abducted, and tortured to death. They then dumped his body in a gutter. So don’t sit in your comfy living room and tell me they are brutal. Don’t confuse emotion with reality on the ground, the brutality of the insurgency has nothing to do with them being democratic, like you said, it was about power, and Sunni Arabs have been knocked off their status of being the Political elite by the majority of the Iraqi population, so naturally, like any group which have now been alienated, they’ve resorted to violence to achieve political aims. > [@](#): > > But it doesn’t help anyone’s understanding of the situation to throw around terms like anti-democratic. If they’re not anti democratic, then why are they so intent on destroying the power sharing process that’s been brought about? It looks like to me that it’s nothing to do with democracy, but the desire to destroy the democratic process already established and return to the status quo of before. > [@](#): > > It also doesn’t help to overplay the role of Zarqawi. His role in the insurgency appears to have been inflated by the US eager to show a foreign presence in the insurgency. By using terms like ‘anti-democratic,’ saying ‘they hate are freedoms,’ calling them ‘cowards’ and focusing on Zarqawi, we are reducing the enemy to cartoon characters. This might help us feel better, but it doesn’t help solve the problem. Zarqawi might be small fries, however he’s responsible for most of the carbombing ‘spectaculars’ and most atrocities against the Iraqi population using outright terror to destroy Iraqi society to achieve the aim of civil war. As for them hating ‘our’ freedoms, it’s pretty apparent they hate anyones freedom to not adhere to their particular ideologies. As for the insurgents not affiliated with Zarqawi, the President of Iraq, MNF forces and government officials have all met with representatives of the insurgency, even in the Cairo reconcilation conference last summer, all major ethnic/sectarian groups agreed in principle to resistance of Occupation. > [@](#): > > I am saying that the majority of the Iraqi people have no experience with democracy and with the exception of exile groups, never expressed a strong desire for democracy. I also think you are trying to label critics of this intervention as racists, which is a technique Bush used in several speeches. It is a strawman. How could the Iraqi people express a desire for democracy if they were unable to express that desire without being put in jail or at worst, executed? > [@](#): > > Also, I’d like to know how you define democracy. Women now have less rights than they did under Hussein’s regime. Many of the parties that have been elected from the south have explicitly un-democratic platforms, including the establishment of a Shia theocracy. The establishment of a Shia Theocracy maybe in the charter of the parties, but in reality I don’t think it will be achievable considering the opposition from other sects and some Shias themselves. In the Brookings report the polling for an ‘Islamic republic’ got no more than 30%. Much like Hamas having to stall the destruction of Israel which is in it’s charter for political reality. Women have more rights in the terms of political power than in Saddam Husseins time, but due to the violence and intimidation campaigns to put it bluntly ‘keep them in their place’ they’ve not been able to exercise these rights to their full potential. A theocracy implies that the Clergy in Iraq (especially Najaf) would participate in the political life of Iraqis, which Ayatollah Sistani has objected too (especially given the example of his next door neighbour, Iran) > [@](#): > > Lebanon and Iraq have completely different cultures and histories. Lebanon has a history of greater openess and access to western ideas and culture. That maybe, however the examples are there in the political processes they’ve/are going through, both have histories of Sunni and Shia violence, and both have a government brought about which has/is able to sufficiently deal with the problems of representation. > [@](#): > > The nation also has a longer history of experimentation with democracy, extending at least to 1943. Yet the political system is pretty much the same as it was since the civil wars and the Syrian Occupation? > [@](#): > > For the Lebanese, democracy has become an ideal that is accepted by a large segment of the society as something worth fighting for and working at. But I bet in the beginning the same kinda ethnic confrontations and sectarian rivalry was around just as it’s like in Iraq right now. Right now you see the same type of situation where Iraqis are defending a government they’ve elected and have a stake in, the only difficulty is how to allow the Sunni minority sufficient representation and reigning in of Paramilitary groups. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by this. The attack on the mosque was an attempt to escalate sectarain violence. Essentially, they are trying to force people to choose sides in the coming civil war. But most of the people on both sides knew that terrorists were trying to do very that, however, it brought out the best on both sides, with the exception of Sadr, who backtracked once he found out his militia was participating in executions of Sunni Iraqis, many from both sides prayed and worked at making sure they wouldn’t be split apart by the attack. > [@](#): > > **Kimstu** > > I see what you’re saying about nominal support not equating to full participation, but I don’t think that means that we can dismiss even nominal support as a negligible problem. Well people can support Che Guervara, but it doesn’t equate with them wanting to emulate him or carry out similar attacks he launched. > [@](#): > > After all, when we see polls saying that such-and-such number of Palestinians express support for suicide bombings or such-and-such number of Muslims worldwide express support for Osama bin Laden, we tend to consider that a bad sign (if the numbers are high, that is). We don’t just shrug and say “oh well, who cares if they support it as long as they’re not actually out there doing it.” That’s freedom of expression for you, people can say they support someones actions without actually doing anything for them. That isn’t to say we can’t influence them from supporting them further. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/29 "2006-05-15T17:47:29Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > If they’re not anti democratic, then why are they so intent on destroying the power sharing process that’s been brought about? It looks like to me that it’s nothing to do with democracy, but the desire to destroy the democratic process already established and return to the status quo of before. I could be mistaken, but I think **madmonk** ’s point is that it’s not very helpful to describe the insurgents as anti-democratic, not because they aren’t opposed to democracy, but because their opposition isn’t in favour of democracy either. If neither side is pro-democracy, labelling one side as anti-democratic is unhelpful at best and misleading at worst. As I read his posts, **madmonk** is asserting that this is a straight up struggle for raw power between two factions, not an ideological clash over political principles. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/30 "2006-05-15T18:03:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I could be mistaken, but I think madmonk’s point is that it’s not very helpful to describe the insurgents as anti-democratic, not because they aren’t opposed to democracy, but because their opposition isn’t in favour of democracy either. If neither side is pro-democracy, labelling one side as anti-democratic is unhelpful at best and misleading at worst. As I read his posts, madmonk is asserting that this is a straight up struggle for raw power between two factions, not an ideological clash over political principles. Where’s the evidence the current Shia bloc is undemocratic? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/31 "2006-05-15T18:20:42Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Then I don’t suppose you’ll find the Brooking institute report to be any worth. :rolleyes: [/quote] Not if it supports the war; the pro war faction are proven liars. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Dude, when you proclaim that the ‘occupiers rape and pillage’ it’s not anything _but_ self hatred. [/quote] I said rape and torture, although we are pillaging as well. It’s not _self_ hatred, since I opposed the war and feel no guilt over it. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] You can’t even bring yourself to acknowledge the achievements the Iraqi people have accomplished besides the death and violence. [/quote] I don’t believe there are any of significance. Certainly none that compensate for the harm they have suffered. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Of course we did, but at least we’re willing to rebuild it, I suppose you won’t put the same judgements onto the last Iraqi government which pretty much bombed whoever it liked? [/quote] Oh, garbage; our “rebuilding” is just a scam to hand money over to people like Haliburton; it’s not real. _We_ bomb ( and kidnap and rape and torture and murder ) whomever we like; the main distinction between us and Saddam in Iraq is he did a better job at running the place. I mean that not as a complement to Saddam, but as an insult to us. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Their infrastructure was already wrecked from the repressions, wars and murder that was inflicted onto the Iraqi population by their own government. [/quote] No, we did most of the damage. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] I think present Coalition countries and the Bush Administration would want nothing more than to be asked to leave. [/quote] Pure nonsense; we’ll never leave, till the ME is drained of oil and converted to Christian fundamentalism. That’s why we are building a giant embassy and huge military bases. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] It’s not representative of the country on a whole, just that more terrorist organisations are concerntrating their attacks in Baghdad as symbolism that the country is in ‘state failure’ [/quote] And your proof these are _all_ terrorists and not patriots is ? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/32 "2006-05-15T18:30:46Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Where’s the evidence the current Shia bloc is undemocratic? [/QUOTE] > [@madmonk28](#): > > Many of the parties that have been elected from the south have explicitly un-democratic platforms, including the establishment of a Shia theocracy. I am merely trying to clarify what **madmonk** is saying. I don’t purport to have evidence, though this does jive with my impression of the political scene in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/33 "2006-05-15T18:35:37Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Where’s the evidence the current Shia bloc is undemocratic? [/QUOTE] Try keeping up with current events – reality-based even. Fer instance: [**Shiite lawmaker threatens to form government unilaterall** y](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-05-14-iraqgovernment_x.htm) > [@](#): > > As the 275-member parliament convened Sunday, Bahaa al-Araji, a lawmaker loyal to the radical anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, denounced what he said was continued U.S. meddling in the selection of ministers for coveted Interior and Defense Ministry posts. He set a deadline of two days before the 130 alliance deputies act unilaterally. > > “Within the past two days, the occupation forces have been interfering with certain names and certain posts,” said al-Araji, whose group holds 30 seats. “There are also blocs participating in the (formation of) the government that have begun demanding more than what they are entitled to electorally.” > > “We have set a limit of within two days, and the (various) blocs should abide by this timeframe and act in accordance with the rules upon which we have agreed. Otherwise, we will form a government without regard to their demands,” he said, singling out the Sunni Arab Accordance Front as one example. Reality’s a pesky thing, kid. Sooner you learn that the sooner you’ll learn to live in it. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/34 "2006-05-15T18:41:10Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] I could be mistaken, but I think **madmonk** ’s point is that it’s not very helpful to describe the insurgents as anti-democratic, not because they aren’t opposed to democracy, but because their opposition isn’t in favour of democracy either. If neither side is pro-democracy, labelling one side as anti-democratic is unhelpful at best and misleading at worst. As I read his posts, **madmonk** is asserting that this is a straight up struggle for raw power between two factions, not an ideological clash over political principles. [/QUOTE] \*\*Gorsnak \*\* very succintly exlained my position. I think throwing words like anti-democratic is merely propaganda. It doesn’t have any relevance to the on the ground realities here. As for the Brookings report, it doesn’t paint a very rosy picture. It does show some types of combat deaths trending down over the winter, but that really isn’t the fighting season here. There clearly is a program of ethnic cleansing underway. This will lead to a civil war. As for the constituted government, the Army is largely Sunni and persecutes the Shia, the police are largely Shia and persecute the Sunni. These are the instruments of government and they do not represent any kind of democratizing force in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/35 "2006-05-15T22:01:32Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Try keeping up with current events – reality-based even. Fer instance: [**Shiite lawmaker threatens to form government unilaterall** y](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-05-14-iraqgovernment_x.htm) Reality’s a pesky thing, kid. Sooner you learn that the sooner you’ll learn to live in it. [/QUOTE] Yes the Sadrist bloc is complaining of US influence which is trying to curtail one of the most anti democratic forces within the Shia-led government, and it is those who owe allegance with Moktada. No surprises there, bucko. Shame you didn’t know this before you opened your mouth. Also, the number of parties which are complaining is because of the increasing call of the US and Maliki to have experienced Technocrats, not party favourites of different blocs, to run the country. Step in the right direction. > [@](#): > > There clearly is a program of ethnic cleansing underway. This will lead to a civil war. I don’t think so, that would imply that the Shias and Sunnis were ethnically different to each other. I believe there is enough support left in each Sectarian bloc to make allocations and work hard to stamp out the insurgency. These people don’t wanna be at each other’s throats. I’ll make you a bet, there will be absolutely no civil war in 2 years, a wide margin, plenty of time for me to be proven wrong, but I am adamant that there will be no civil war in Iraq, there just won’t be, because all sides realise the political and economic costs of what a civil war will bring them. > [@](#): > > As for the constituted government, the Army is largely Sunni and persecutes the Shia, the police are largely Shia and persecute the Sunni. I’m sorry but this is frankly rubbish, the majority of both forces are Shia and Kurdish, with representation of the Sunnis in each arm of the security force around or below 10%. And futher for me to add, the Army is trusted more and is perceived to be more competent than their Police counterparts. Command level Sunnis maybe in the majority due to their experience, however I’d believe it would be difficult to turn Shia forces against a Shia population in order to enact revenge on them. > [@](#): > > These are the instruments of government and they do not represent any kind of democratizing force in Iraq. Yes they do, both of those security forces provide the bulwark against the type of terrorism we’re witnessing within Iraq, so all the more reason to get them intergrated, representative of Iraqis on a whole, and well armed equipped and loyal to the state and not to any particular people in office. > [@](#): > > Gorsnak very succintly exlained my position. I think throwing words like anti-democratic is merely propaganda. It doesn’t have any relevance to the on the ground realities here. Which would be? Here? I would presume you’re in Iraq right now as we speak? > [@](#): > > As for the Brookings report, it doesn’t paint a very rosy picture. It does show some types of combat deaths trending down over the winter, but that really isn’t the fighting season here. No the Brookings report doesn’t paint a rosy picture, however it does highlight the fact on the political freedoms index, Iraq comes 5th, behind Lebanon, Morrocco, both more freer Arab states. Not bad for three years work. Also, Iraq has estimated growth rates of 16.8% this year, with per capita income rising, inflation down to 20%, and falling unemployment down to 27%. It’s growth rates are comparable to the rates of the expanding economies of Asia. All this combined with political uncertainty, a raging insurgency and damaged infrastructure. **Der Trihs** prove the elections _aren’t_ valid before I respond to any of your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/36 "2006-05-15T22:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] **Der Trihs** prove the elections _aren’t_ valid before I respond to any of your posts. [/QUOTE] They were held under the guns of a hostile occupying power; us. That invalidates them ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/37 "2006-05-15T23:10:13Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Which would be? Here? I would presume you’re in Iraq right now as we speak? Yes, **Ryan** , as you’ll see from **madmonk** ’s “Location” field, he identifies himself as currently being in Baghdad. He has also referred to Iraq as “here” in other posts in this thread, and referred to his work there: > [@madmonk28](#): > > Tortured bodies turn up every day here. […] > > I authored a survey/report of IDPs in Baghdad. […] > > I have been here off and on since the very beginning of the US invasion […] > > I have lost a lot of colleagues here. […] ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/38 "2006-05-15T23:29:38Z")
I’m sorry, kid, but weren’t you just saying upthread that > [@Ryan](#): > > We are helping in ways that we are/have been seen to be the mediator and neutral group in relation to both of the communities, and a mediator in helping the transistion to a four year government. and yet I’ve just shown you a a Shiite group (with considerable power and pull for Muqtada al-Sadr is both a hero by religious lineage and for his actions in Najaf, Sadr City and Basra ) that wants you the hell out? Sunnies? Do even want to go _there_? Why, this just in: [**Iraq Sunnis accuse US of “atrocity” over raids**](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15767399.htm) Yep, no doubt you’re seen as “mediators and neutral group.” In your dreams that is. And Bushie’s ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/39 "2006-05-15T23:48:06Z")
Read “a familly in Iraq”, Baghdad Burning, and Free Iraq .These are 3 blogs from Iraq. It gives you the other side. They are sporadic because electricity is off and on.They call the US occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/40 "2006-05-16T00:59:16Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Read “a familly in Iraq”, Baghdad Burning, and Free Iraq .These are 3 blogs from Iraq. It gives you the other side. They are sporadic because electricity is off and on.They call the US occupiers. [/QUOTE] Which can be countered by Iraq the Model, Iraqi Pundit and Mesopotamian all of which are outstanding blogs. They don’t exactly praise the US, but they don’t blame them for everything either, and don’t term the US occupiers until the cows come home. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, kid, but weren’t you just saying upthread that > [@](#): > > and yet I’ve just shown you a a Shiite group (with considerable power and pull for Muqtada al-Sadr is both a hero by religious lineage and for his actions in Najaf, Sadr City and Basra ) that wants you the hell out? Well **Bucko** , Sadrists do not represent the Iraqi people, and have been blamed for many atrocities against Iraqis, Sunni and Shia alike. Heh, a Hero who is a ‘scholar’ who couldn’t even finish his religious studies, because he was itching for his own power base. Sadr commands no where near the respect the established religious clergy has, that clergy lead by Sistani, an educated revered man which can bypass any rants made by Sadr, who is basically abusing his fathers name and his own heritage for his own aims. > [@](#): > > Sunnies? Do even want to go there? Why, this just in: > Yep, no doubt you’re seen as “mediators and neutral group.” > > In your dreams that is. And Bushie’s The MNF favours neither the Sunnis or the Shias into controlling Iraq, because the only way in which Iraq will succeed is when all groups come to an agreement of powersharing in government. US mediation got Sunnis more seats in the Cabinet, and more people writing the constitution, it also got them a review of the constitution over sensitive arguements concerning federalism. So yes, the US has killed Sunnis, Shias, but in the political sense it favours neither over the other in order to succeed in bringing about a government of national unity. > [@](#): > > They were held under the guns of a hostile occupying power; us. That invalidates them They were validated by the UN, if they were false, they wouldn’t have a hells chance in succeeding, and I might as well point out that Afghanistan is ‘occupied’ and has similar elections which were validated by the UN. > [@](#): > > Yes, Ryan, as you’ll see from madmonk’s “Location” field, he identifies himself as currently being in Baghdad. He has also referred to Iraq as “here” in other posts in this thread, and referred to his work there: Are you trying to insult me or something? You do not have to provide me with examples of him talking about people being shot dead in order to verify a yes. However I’ll take where he claims to be with a pinch of salt until I see some evidence he IS actually there. > [@](#): > > Tortured bodies turn up every day here. […] > > I authored a survey/report of IDPs in Baghdad. […] > > I have been here off and on since the very beginning of the US invasion […] > > I have lost a lot of colleagues here. […] So why did he get the account of the Iraqi Army being nearly completely Sunni and the Iraqi Police nearly all Shia if he’s in the heart of the action so to speak? Look I’m not saying he’s lying, I just find it odd he would make such an obvious error. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733.md?page=3)