# Seventy bodies delivered to Baghdad morgue in six hours, many tortured and executed. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733 "2006-05-14T14:11:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/41 "2006-05-16T01:03:50Z")
[The link that my dad, **gonzomax** , didn’t provide.](http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com/) It may be a limited scope (read: region or city) of what’s going on, but for what’s going on in that scope, it seems to be pretty friggin accurate. Hell, I’d trust this more than I would Fox News. Okay, that was a bit low. I’d trust that blog more than I would trust some conflicting “facts” from any news source. There. That should avert that bit of mud. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/42 "2006-05-16T01:07:53Z")
Who killed these seventy people, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/43 "2006-05-16T01:10:01Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] [The link that my dad, **gonzomax** , didn’t provide.](http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com/) It may be a limited scope (read: region or city) of what’s going on, but for what’s going on in that scope, it seems to be pretty friggin accurate. Hell, I’d trust this more than I would Fox News. Okay, that was a bit low. I’d trust that blog more than I would trust some conflicting “facts” from any news source. There. That should avert that bit of mud. [/QUOTE] These are better. But they both have the same problem, perceptions. So news sources are preferable because they have to be verified by fact, not opinion. > **[iraqpundit](http://iraqpundit.blogspot.com/)** > **[IRAQ THE MODEL](http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/)** > > New points of view about the future of Iraq and the Middle East. > **[Sign in - Google Accounts](https://accounts.google.com/v3/signin/identifier?continue=https:%2F%2Fwww.blogger.com%2Fblogin?u%3Dhttp:%2F%2Fhealingiraq.blogspot.com%2F&followup=https:%2F%2Fwww.blogger.com%2Fblogin?u%3Dhttp:%2F%2Fhealingiraq.blogspot.com%2F&passive=1209600&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin&dsh=S-1657157410:1792993103429298)** ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/44 "2006-05-16T06:04:23Z")
Posted by **Least Original User Name Ever** > [@](#): > > Who killed these seventy people, by the way? It appears that the killing is being done by the Shia dominated police. Here are two stories that talk about this: the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/10/world/middleeast/10patrols.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) and the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/14/AR2006051400707.html) **Ryan\_Liam** you are correct that the army is dominated by the Kurds, but not in Baghdad. Many (if not most) of the troops in the capital are Sunni Arabs as are the majority of the officers. The Kurdish troops work more closely with the US than other army units. In fact, it is not really accurate to refer to the Iraqi army as a singel entity, it is more a collection of individual militias with weak to non-existent loyalty to the national government. The police are dominated by the Shia, as is the Ministry of Interior which controls them. **Ryan\_Liam** I am indeed in Baghdad. Over the years I have started a couple of “ask the guy in Baghdad” threads which you can find. I am an aid worker here and I have been in and out of the country since the summer of 2003. If you would like me to somehow verify this for you, please think up something that would satisfy you curiosity. I have a camera phone, I could take a picture of something and email it to you if you would like. Bear in mind I will not: provide any information that identifies me, or is a picture of me; I will not take a picture of any military sites (illegal and dangerous); or show the faces of my staff. I can take a random picture of Baghdad streets for you if you want or some other picture that can confirm my location, you tell me. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/45 "2006-05-16T06:20:34Z")
[QUOTE=madmonk28] I also disagree that the insurgency is simply anti-democracy. They are opposed to power sharing with other sects/ethnicities and they are opposed to foreign occupation. For many of them, democracy has little meaning beyond being American propaganda. [/QUOTE] But… but why can’t they be more like us 'Merkins? Us’m here in God Bless the USA would NEVER fight or kill if OUR country was invaded and occupied! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/46 "2006-05-16T06:30:40Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] It doesn’t matter if people ‘support’ attacks against Coalition targets… _(snippy)_ … supporting attacks and committing attacks aren’t one in the same thing. [/QUOTE] No they are not the same thing, but both of them (so long as the attacks are against the foreign invaders and not innocent civilians) are patriotic acts which if MY nation were to be invaded I would _expect_ both myself and my fellow citizens. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/47 "2006-05-16T07:07:06Z")
**Ryan\_Liam** I go on leave tomorrow, so here is what I propose: I will print off the front page of CNN today and go up on the roof and take some pictures where you can see the printed webpage (to verify the date) and some random Baghdad skyline (maybe a US helicopter off in the distance, I can’t promise it). I will then email the pics to you. Would that satisfy your skepticism? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/48 "2006-05-16T11:10:22Z")
**madmonk** , I don’t think **Ryan\_Liam** was actually skeptical about your claims to be in Baghdad. As you point out, you’ve made many references to being there during previous discussions on this board, and if you **weren’t** actually in Baghdad, that would be a hell of a laborious fake backstory to set up just so you could sound a little more authoritative about the Iraq situation. I think **Ryan** just didn’t pick up on your earlier comments about being in Baghdad, but now that they’ve been pointed out I don’t think he’s challenging their veracity. Of course, I can’t speak for **Ryan** and he may say I’m wrong. Enjoy your leave, and good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/49 "2006-05-16T11:13:22Z")
Oops, and of course I missed the part in **Ryan** ’s post #40 where he explicitly said that he **was** questioning your location: > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Are you trying to insult me or something? You do not have to provide me with examples of him talking about people being shot dead in order to verify a yes. However I’ll take where he claims to be with a pinch of salt until I see some evidence he IS actually there. So, never mind me. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/50 "2006-05-16T14:23:04Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Yes, **Ryan** , as you’ll see from **madmonk** ’s “Location” field, he identifies himself as currently being in Baghdad. He has also referred to Iraq as “here” in other posts in this thread, and referred to his work there: [/QUOTE] Well, sure, but **Ryan\_Liam** _still_ knows more about the situation than **madmonk28**. Remember, kids, for people like **Ryan\_Liam** , reality is something that happens to _other_ people. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/51 "2006-05-16T14:25:08Z")
[QUOTE=madmonk28] **Ryan\_Liam** I go on leave tomorrow, so here is what I propose: I will print off the front page of CNN today and go up on the roof and take some pictures where you can see the printed webpage (to verify the date) and some random Baghdad skyline (maybe a US helicopter off in the distance, I can’t promise it). I will then email the pics to you. Would that satisfy your skepticism? [/QUOTE] I got a better idea, put on a piece of paper ‘Hello Ryan\_Liam! Your name but not you has finally reached it to Baghdad’ Then I will have no doubts whatsoever. If you’re near firdos square then that would help. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/52 "2006-05-16T15:19:44Z")
No, I’m not near Firdos square and I’m not traveling to it to take a picture. I’m buttoned up in my compound and will be until I leave for the airport tomorrow. I’ll see what I can do. I will take such a picture now. I can also offer pictures of a close up of my entry visa, and a close up of my exit visa. I did a test and I cannot send pics from my phone to my album on line. So, I will either send them from Amman tomorrow, or I will send it Friday when I get back to the states. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/53 "2006-05-16T16:54:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, sure, but Ryan\_Liam still knows more about the situation than madmonk28. > > Remember, kids, for people like Ryan\_Liam, reality is something that happens to other people. > > -Joe That’s right, resort to ridiculous sarcasm for your lack of knowledge on the subject. If you want to do your immature rant **kid** , do it in the pit, you all might know him more than I do, and trust him more, but I don’t. And if I’m going to believe he’s in Iraq, I want proof of him being there. > [@](#): > > **I Love Me, Vol. I** > > No they are not the same thing, but both of them (so long as the attacks are against the foreign invaders and not innocent civilians) are patriotic acts which if MY nation were to be invaded I would expect both myself and my fellow citizens. That’s pretty ridiculous considering the MNF has helped Iraqis who are elected by their constituents write their own constitution, remove most of the laws banning political parties and freedom of expression, which has made the Iraqi government more represenative and accountable to it’s electorate than any Iraqi government for the last 50 years. If a military force came into my area, removed the local despot, announced elections for people who I wanted in office, started building up democratic institutions and training my people in how to defend them, then I would be fighting the people who ‘claimed’ to be fighting against foreign ‘occupation’ > [@](#): > > But… but why can’t they be more like us 'Merkins? Us’m here in God Bless the USA would NEVER fight or kill if OUR country was invaded and occupied! No they wouldn’t, not if they found out the government in place after the liberation was substantially more represenatative and accountable than the last one. > [@](#): > > **madmonk28** > > Ryan\_Liam you are correct that the army is dominated by the Kurds, but not in Baghdad. Many (if not most) of the troops in the capital are Sunni Arabs as are the majority of the officers. I didn’t say it was dominated by Kurdish battilions, but that Sunni Arabs constitute less than 10% of the entire security apparatus of the country, so to say that the Sunnis are in control of the Army and the Shia in control of the Police, is generalising too much, unless you mean the Defence ministry is controlled by the Sunnis and the Ministry of the Interior is controlled by the Shias, in which case you would be correct. [http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2006/may/ranger/mccaffrey.pdf](http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2006/may/ranger/mccaffrey.pdf) This is a report on the readiness and effectiveness of the Iraqi army, and states that inclusion of Sunnis is just beginning for ‘boots on the ground’ so to state the the Army is full of Sunnis is fallicious because we’ve just penetrated the Anbar province and established forward operating bases to bring those areas under control. > [@](#): > > The Kurdish troops work more closely with the US than other army units. In fact, it is not really accurate to refer to the Iraqi army as a singel entity, it is more a collection of individual militias with weak to non-existent loyalty to the national government. Kurdish Units work closely with US Units because they’re more pro-US and less inclined to turn on MNF forces than the other two sectarian blocs, it’s a basic tactic to use whoever is the most friendly to your forces to get the job done, not to mention that Peshmerga Units are usually advanced than their Sunni/Shia counterparts because they’ve had basic military training already. Sunnis have no militias, and the size of the Shia militias doesn’t go beyond 50,000 out of a population of 27 million (Badr members of the Militia . Which would overestimate the amount of militia members within the Iraqi Army. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/18/AR2006041801625.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/18/AR2006041801625.html) I wouldn’t state that the Iraqi army has non existant loyalty, I would rather place their loyalty to the state rather than the person who occupies the offices of interior or defence, that’s how a modern Army operates. > [@](#): > > The police are dominated by the Shia, as is the Ministry of Interior which controls them. Which is why the MNF has stated that this year will be the ‘Year of the Police’ rooting out and purging the Police forces of militia elements is as important as defeating the insurgency. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/54 "2006-05-16T19:52:50Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] No they wouldn’t, not if they found out the government in place after the liberation was substantially more represenatative and accountable than the last one. [/QUOTE] I guess you don’t know many Americans, do you. Oh… and it’s not a _liberation_, it’s an _occupation_. But don’t feel bad about your faux pas-- many Americans and our president make the same mistake. On reflection though, I guess you \*could \* say the Iraqi’s had their electicity, water supply, safety, security, and many of their lives liberated. You could say it in that funny ol’slang talk folks sometimes use: “Yeah… I hit the dude over the head and liberated his wallet.” ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/55 "2006-05-16T20:18:27Z")
[QUOTE=I Love Me, Vol. I] I guess you don’t know many Americans, do you. Oh… and it’s not a _liberation_, it’s an _occupation_. But don’t feel bad about your faux pas-- many Americans and our president make the same mistake. On reflection though, I guess you \*could \* say the Iraqi’s had their electicity, water supply, safety, security, and many of their lives liberated. You could say it in that funny ol’slang talk folks sometimes use: “Yeah… I hit the dude over the head and liberated his wallet.” [/QUOTE] Feel bad? It’s UN mandated, Iraqis have a freely elected government, maybe incompetent, but otherwise elected legitimately, maybe after Saddam was deposed it was an occupation government, but after 2005 elections, it’s not occupation, it’s political liberation. The underlying ethnic tensions have always been there. Iraqis will always have the situation where one minority or majority oppresses another, but with the government they have, it provides more of a balance than the bullet. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/56 "2006-05-16T20:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Iraqis will always have the situation where one minority or majority oppresses another, but with the government they have, it provides more of a balance than the bullet. [/QUOTE] Prove it. Everything I hear tells me they are worse off in most or all ways than they were pre war. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/57 "2006-05-16T20:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Prove it. Everything I hear tells me they are worse off in most or all ways than they were pre war. Nice try Der, but you’ve still not answered my question about the legitimacy of the elections in Iraq and Afghanistan being false. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/58 "2006-05-16T20:59:18Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Nice try Der, but you’ve still not answered my question about the legitimacy of the elections in Iraq and Afghanistan being false. [/QUOTE] I did. As I said, elections under the guns of a hostile foreign power aren’t valid. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/59 "2006-05-16T21:52:44Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] That’s right, resort to ridiculous sarcasm for your lack of knowledge on the subject. If you want to do your immature rant **kid** , do it in the pit, you all might know him more than I do, and trust him more, but I don’t. And if I’m going to believe he’s in Iraq, I want proof of him being there. [/QUOTE] Pfft. Feel free to revel in your ignorance. It’s quite entertaining. Now, when **madmonk28** sends you those pictures, are you going to admit that he might know more about what’s going on in Iraq than **Armchair General Ryan\_Liam**? Or will you equivocate? If you’re just going to pull the same old shit as you have been this whole thread, why should anyone go through the trouble? I know what my rather accurate sarcasm predicts. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733/60 "2006-05-17T12:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > **Merijeek** > > Pfft. Feel free to revel in your ignorance. It’s quite entertaining. Then flame me, I don’t give a toss, but if you’re trying to goad me, then do it in the pit. He’s not the only person who’s in Baghdad or Iraq that I’ve spoken to. Bill Roggio has been an embed. I’ve asked him alot of questions about the situation there via Email, it’s all about perspective, sure, Madmonk might regard the situation as untenable, or a disaster, but just because he’s in Baghdad doesn’t mean I’m going to take his word as the be all and end all. > [@](#): > > Now, when madmonk28 sends you those pictures, are you going to admit that he might know more about what’s going on in Iraq than Armchair General Ryan\_Liam? Or will you equivocate? If you’re just going to pull the same old shit as you have been this whole thread, why should anyone go through the trouble? What trouble? You think I should completely disregard my facts on the Iraq issue just because he’s currently residing within Baghdad? There’s a reason why this place is called Great Debates, if I want to debate him about the situation there I will do so for as long as I want, if you don’t like it, then leave the thread, make a flame, otherwise quit whining. > [@](#): > > I know what my rather accurate sarcasm predicts. > > -Joe Yeah like I said before, your lack of knowledge is compensated by the amount of insults you can throw at me. > [@](#): > > **Der Trihs** > > I did. As I said, elections under the guns of a hostile foreign power aren’t valid. That doesn’t even make any sense, Iraqi and Afghan government elections have been validated by the United Nations, the Afghan President is the first directly elected president in Afghanistans history. So they are valid, better luck next time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/seventy-bodies-delivered-to-baghdad-morgue-in-six-hours-many-tortured-and-executed/356733.md?page=4)